Creation vs. Evolution

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gcthomas

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The dialectic of evolution:
Ameba become fish become amphibians become reptiles become birds become mammals become man become theists become republicans become atheists become democrats

You might want to check out a junior school primer on evolution, since you haven't got a clue what evolution proposes. How could you possibly think, for example, that birds evolved into mammals? Amoeba didn't become fish, since they are in a separate kingdom to the animals.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
It is, again, populations which evolve, not individuals. So the benefit of having the sickle cell gene is to the population, not to every specific individual. It benefits people on the average in a malaria endemic area, but not those in mid northern or southern latitudes.

Get with it, Dave. You ought to be able to follow this simple argument.

The whole population of humanity does not have sickle cell, so my point is not refuted.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You might want to check out a junior school primer on evolution, since you haven't got a clue what evolution proposes. How could you possibly think, for example, that birds evolved into mammals? Amoeba didn't become fish, since they are in a separate kingdom to the animals.

This list was obviously not meant to be long, complete, or completely accurate, as every one knows it. It was also done in jest, you just didn't get it.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
When exactly should we give up on any scientific naturalistic only answers Dave?

If I find something a bit too hard to figure out personally should I then just assume that since I can't understand it then nobody else can, and therefore God must have done it?
Or maybe I might not be quite as clever as I think I am and should keep on trying, especially if science does seem to know what it's talking about? :think:

God created gene pools when he created everything after its kind.

We should give up on purely naturalistic answers of science when they are proven to be wrong with things like the fossil record.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I got it. It is just that I see ALL your posts as one big joke. :up:

:angrymob::angrymob::angrymob: Dave's a big joke! Let's get'em

Or just maybe you could try to respond to my post in an intelligent way for a change.

--Dave
 

noguru

Well-known member
:angrymob::angrymob::angrymob: Dave's a big joke! Let's get'em

Or just maybe you could try to respond to my post in an intelligent way for a change.

--Dave

You do not provide intelligent posts/responses to start with. You know the saying, SISO is the acronym.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Another attack of ad hominems

:angrymob: Get Dave, that high-schooled pseudo-logical self idolizer.

As I've made clear, natural selection is a meaningless phrase.

Let's get more technical then, let's look at the logic of it all, if you can handle it.

Rational thinking
Kant destroyed the proof for God as perfect being. Fortunately "perfect being" is from natural theology not Biblical revelation. To say a "perfect being" cannot not exist does not really prove he exists. The structure of the argument is the classic tautology--circular reasoning in which the conclusion is implied in the premise. The demise of "reasoning" the nature and existence of God prepares the way for a new way of thinking.

Dialectic thinking
Hegel was critical of thinking antithetically--thesis verses antithesis, where two contradictory ideas cannot both be true. He even went beyond "synthesis", the combining an idea with it's antithesis to form a new idea, and said that the new idea will also have it's own antitheses from which we can form another synthesis which will form it's own antithesis and so on, and on, and on.....the dialectic methodology. The Theory of evolution follows this idea, but first ToE is a synthesis.

The modern synthesis: Evolution and genetics

Thesis: Random events in nature Antithesis: non random events in nature

Synthesis: Non random events in nature--environment, work with random events in nature--mutations

The dialectic of evolution:
Ameba become fish become amphibians become reptiles become birds become mammals become man become theists become republicans become atheists become democrats :cheers:

But back to original thesis and antithesis of the modern synthesis.

Thesis: Genetics--the dispersion of gene pools Antithesis: Evolution--the accumulation of gene pools

Synthesis: Both the accumulations and the dispersions of gene pools is evolution

If the theory of evolution was only a philosophy we would not know if it were true or not, but because it's also an empirical science it has to show us physical evidence to confirm it. The fossil record has failed to do this so DNA has become the test of truth.

When we, who are skeptical of ToE, ask for proof of the "accumulation" of DNA we are presented with proof of the "dispersion" instead. When we protest the evolutionists say evolution is both the "accumulation of DNA" and the "dispersion of DNA", if we can prove one we have proven the other, contradictions are not a problem, we resolve the conflict by unification. Evolution has become the UN of sciences. Accumulation and dispersion are the same thing just as fallen trees and bridges.

The sickle cell is a good example of evolution for the evolutionist. It is an example how existing DNA in a cell mutates and disperses, we all agree with that. When asked how the cell that mutated originated we are told it's a mutation as well, but when we ask for "evidence" of past mutations that gave rise to present DNA we are told that present ones are evidence for all past ones, which makes evolution unverifiable because we cannot recover past DNA and therefore unfalsifiable. This is also a tautology--circular reasoning, just like the proof for the existence of God.

This also becomes equivocation because evolution has two definitions, the accumulation of DNA and the dispersion of DNA. The present existence and dispersion of mutations are given as proof of the past accumulation of mutations that ironically became healthy cells, rationality not required.

A agree with Francis Schaeffer, all syntheses are irrational and not true understandings of who God is, the world we live in, or how we got here.

Dynamic Free Theism is the only rational, antithetical world view.

--Dave

Dave, you seem to have memorized lots of intelligent sounding nomenclature. Unfortunately you do not have the wisdom to apply these ideas accurately.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Intention is purpose.

The humans crossing a river over a tree that has fallen have the intention of using it as a bridge. Nature has not intentioned it to be a bridge so it has no purpose, in itself, to be a bridge, therefore it is simply a fallen tree, not a bridge.

You understand these ideas, I am impressed. Genetic variation has no "intention". But the right genotype, which creates a certain phenotype, can have a useful function for reproductive advantage. Perhaps you are starting to understand how your analogy applies, but not in the way you initially intended. But I strongly suspect you will just stubbornly ignore the reality, as usual.
 

alwight

New member
God created gene pools when he created everything after its kind.

We should give up on purely naturalistic answers of science when they are proven to be wrong with things like the fossil record.

--Dave
Dave, finding something wrong with the conclusions with some fossil examples does not somehow then falsify all such evidence, and no faulty conclusions will falsify the ToE. Only rigorous and accurate conclusions regarding genuine fossils that do not fit would do that, and you don't have any as far as I know.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Based on your track record for (mis)understanding "complex" ideas in biology I am not surprised.

You used the word "reproduce" when I think instead you should have used "replicate", so I was not sure what you were trying to say.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dave, you seem to have memorized lots of intelligent sounding nomenclature. Unfortunately you do not have the wisdom to apply these ideas accurately.

I already know philosophy is way over your head, I'll help you with that as we go.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dave, finding something wrong with the conclusions with some fossil examples does not somehow then falsify all such evidence, and no faulty conclusions will falsify the ToE. Only rigorous and accurate conclusions regarding genuine fossils that do not fit would do that, and you don't have any as far as I know.

Stephen Jay Gould
The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution. The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism, I wish only to point out that it was never "seen" in the rocks. The history of most fossils species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism:

Stasis: Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking pretty much the same as when they disappeared; morphological change is usually limited and directionless.

Sudden appearance: In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and "fully formed."

Dr. Niles Eldredge
If life had evolved into its wondrous profusion of creatures little by little, then one would expect to find fossils of transitional creatures which were a bit like what went before them and a bit like what came after. But no one has yet found any evidence of such transitional creatures. This oddity has been attributed to gaps in the fossil record which gradualists expected to fill when rock strata of the proper age had been found. In the last decade, however, geologists have found rock layers of all divisions of the last 500 million years and no transitional forms were contained in them.

I just love posting this. Not saying that Gould or Eldredge believed that there was no evidence for evolution at all, it's clear from what they wrote there was a problem with gradualism. It is also clear that "Sudden appearance" and "Stasis" are what we creationists were predicting. How do you like my peer review?

--Dave
 

gcthomas

New member
'Sudden Appearance: in any local area... '

The local area part is important. Do you know why? The passage doesn't mean what you thought it did.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You understand these ideas, I am impressed. Genetic variation has no "intention". But the right genotype, which creates a certain phenotype, can have a useful function for reproductive advantage. Perhaps you are starting to understand how your analogy applies, but not in the way you initially intended. But I strongly suspect you will just stubbornly ignore the reality, as usual.

The Lederberg experiment
In 1952, Esther and Joshua Lederberg performed an experiment that helped show that many mutations are random, not directed. In this experiment, they capitalized on the ease with which bacteria can be grown and maintained. Bacteria grow into isolated colonies on plates. These colonies can be reproduced from an original plate to new plates by "stamping" the original plate with a cloth and then stamping empty plates with the same cloth. Bacteria from each colony are picked up on the cloth and then deposited on the new plates by the cloth.

Esther and Joshua hypothesized that antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria surviving an application of antibiotics had the resistance before their exposure to the antibiotics, not as a result of the exposure. Their experimental set-up is summarized below:

1. Bacteria are spread out on a plate, called the "original plate."

2. They are allowed to grow into several different colonies.

3. This layout of colonies is stamped from the original plate onto a new plate that contains the antibiotic penicillin.

4. Colonies X and Y on the stamped plate survive. They must carry a mutation for penicillin resistance.

5. The Lederbergs set out to answer the question, "did the colonies on the new plate evolve antibiotic resistance because they were exposed to penicillin?"

The answer is no: When the original plate is washed with penicillin, the same colonies (those in position X and Y) live — even though these colonies on the original plate have never encountered penicillin before.

So the penicillin-resistant bacteria were there in the population before they encountered penicillin. They did not evolve resistance in response to exposure to the antibiotic.

Now, the big question.

How did the penicillin-resistant bacteria get into the population?

Your move.

--Dave
 

Tyrathca

New member
The whole population of humanity does not have sickle cell, so my point is not refuted.

--Dave

Why on earth would the whole population of humanity have our have not sickle cells?

People with ancestry from non malaria prone regions are unlikely to carry the gene since it offerred no advantage for them. People in malaria prone areas have a significant chance of carrying the gene since bring a carrier is an advantage whenever malaria is around.

The gene will never become ubiquitous throughout the population because of its homozygous lethality (sickle cell anaemia). The main disadvantage of the gene is that if a carrier mates with another carrier then they have a one in four chance of a child with sickle cell anemia, so the more prevalent the mutation becomes the less of an advantageous it is to carry it. Assuming no change in environment the population will tend to a percentage of sickle cell genes at around the tipping point where the anti malaria benefits is equally balanced against the odds of mating with another carrier and having a sickle cell anemia child.


Now what are the odds you can't follow that train of thought...
 
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