Predi
New member
This verse says what was going to happen was necessary, but it doesn't say why.
Could God forgive without crucifixion?
- Thread starter Predi
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This verse says what was going to happen was necessary, but it doesn't say why.
Predi
New member
That's a popular assumption. Could he do something against his own will, nature or character? Could he make a rock heavy enough that he could not lift it? -
The question with the rock... doesn't have a good answer, I'm afraid
As far as I know in Islam Allah can do anything he wants, for example he can lie or treat people unfair. I would put it this way - God can do whatever He wants but He chooses not to. He chooses only to do what is good, what is love.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
You are right, it is. I also liked your last response. (Paraphrasing) That we have the choice to believe that Christ sacrafice was necessary to satisfy God's justice. Necessary to reconcile us with Him to relational intimacy. (Romans 3:26)
For those of us who have experienced Him and intimacy with Him Spiritually through Christ and His sacrafice know undoubtedly it was necessary.
Why? The more that you understand who He is, how holy and righteous He is the more you understand the necessity of it to bring us to Him.
But I do think it is paramount to keep this in mind on how much we can grasp here and now.
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully,even as I have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12
God is absolutely pure. He is perfect but we are not.
The original sin is so complicated and we do not understand.
God's holiness and pureness is beyond our imagination.
It takes faith to believe in God's perfection, pureness, righteousness.
I can trust God is Holy and Pure because it is said over and over that God is love through out the whole Bible even in the OT.
Predi
New member
But love keeps no record of wrongs - 1 Corinthians 13:5 - plus when I sin, I always hurt someone or myself; that's the mess, and in literal sense the death of Jesus doesn't fix anything here, we still suffer earthly consequences...
now you are talking about what must happen to us
-first we are tested
-then we are purified
-actually changed
-our suffering is a big part of that
Justice is the problem!
We are not taught to to give blanket forgiveness in the Bible, by the way. We are taught to forgive AS we have been forgiven. Well, how have we been forgiven? We were forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice when we repented and trusted Christ for salvation. Where there is no repentance there is no forgiveness. What we are taught in the bible is to be ready to forgive if the offender repents. If he repents seven times forgive him seven times, if seventy then seventy, but never are we taught to forgive someone if they've not repented.
But your main question has everything to do with justice. If God did what you suggest and simply forgave everyone then He would have to ignore the demands of justice and He would then be unjust. It would be interesting to see a Calvinist attempt to answer your question. They already believe that God is arbitrary and can do whatever and remain just. They would therefore have no answer for your question (see Patrick Jane's post in this thread for a perfect example). If Calvinism is true then there was no need for Christ to suffer and die. But Calvinism is not true and so the issue of justice remains. Through the cross, God shows both His mercy and His justice. The justice He showed toward His only begotten Son is what makes it possible for Him to show us mercy.
Resting in Him,
Clete
the Lord's prayer teaches that we must forgive in order to be forgiven
Forgiveness is not even offered to us unless we repent and believe. Do I have to quote the bible directly?
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and IF he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Resting in Him,
Clete
csuguy
Well-known member
This is something I would like to dig into more myself. However, I do think that it is incorrect to view forgiveness through Christ as justice. Justice would be getting what you deserve, justice would be death. Forgiveness is a mercy, and mercy transcends justice.
I would also say that it is incorrect to assert that because of Christ that God now has the ability to forgive sin. He has always been willing to forgive one who repents earnestly. Take a look at David, for instance, who clearly deserved death for his transgressions. Rather, scripture says that Christ was given the authority to forgive sins from God - even before his sacrifice.
It is also not the case that either sin or death for it are completely done away with, at least at this point. Rather, we must die and be born again. I think this to be a more accurate understanding of what Christ's death accomplished: that just as he died, we must die - and as he rose, so too will we rise. It is the New Covenant which was established with Christ's blood - so that everyone be afforded the opportunity, the right, to become children of God.
James 2:12-13 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy [m]triumphs over judgment.
I would also say that it is incorrect to assert that because of Christ that God now has the ability to forgive sin. He has always been willing to forgive one who repents earnestly. Take a look at David, for instance, who clearly deserved death for his transgressions. Rather, scripture says that Christ was given the authority to forgive sins from God - even before his sacrifice.
Matthew 9:5-8 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he got up and [c]went home. 8 But when the crowds saw this, they were [d]awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
It is also not the case that either sin or death for it are completely done away with, at least at this point. Rather, we must die and be born again. I think this to be a more accurate understanding of what Christ's death accomplished: that just as he died, we must die - and as he rose, so too will we rise. It is the New Covenant which was established with Christ's blood - so that everyone be afforded the opportunity, the right, to become children of God.
Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive.
Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a [q]covenant is, there must of necessity [r]be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when [t]men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (Genesis 2:17)
The Hebrew word for surely is muth and the word for die is muth. Muth means die.
The penalty Adam incurred was that he would die and he would die a second death.
Adam died in the first millennial day.
If a person receives a traffic ticket they incur a debt to the law. Oftentimes defensive driving class can atone for the ticket and it is considered paid in full. However, if defensive driving class is not an option then the debt must be paid. If a wife gets a ticket her husband can pay the ticket and vice versa. No matter who pays the ticket the debt is satisfied.
A person cannot be judged until after they die, but if someone else pays the debt to sin the person is not required to die again. The debt is satisfied.
Jesus died once for sin but since he was not guilty of sin he could not die again for sin. That would have been a miscarriage of justice.
Since Jesus could not die a second death, God permitted Jesus to redeem others who became like him. This is referred to as grace, undeserved remittance of the second death. However, only those God personally selects can be offered this grace and then be judged according to what they say and do.
Predi
New member
So if the offender doesn't repent, we are supposed to hold the grudge??? Sorry, I don't see that in the Bible.
Forgive 77 times if he repents - these words were spoken before the Gospel of Grace was revealed. There was no known reason to forgive f
Besides, I would see it as a minimum requirement. Forgive always if he repents - at least that - but why not forgive without waiting?
Are we justified "freely, bu His grace" or because we repented?
And how can we have peace if God's forgiveness depends on our repentance? How can we be sure that our repentance is correct??
If we repent, our past sins will be forgiven. That's how you should read it.
God is absolutely pure and righteous.
We still will pay for our mistakes.
God does not play favoritism.
is that good enough for you?
-here is a clue
-what paul doesn't say doesn't trump what Jesus says
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Forgiveness of others free us. Resentment and bitterness are slave masters! Reconciliation of relationships comes through contriteness, repentance.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and seeks to conform us into Christ's likeness, He does this with our cooperation, our continued turning to God with more and more of ourselves, our trust, our faith, our devotion.
we keep on sinning