Conversion.

[Truster]

Most people have been saying that repentance means to “turn”. I keep telling them it doesn’t mean to turn. Turning is conversion or rather being turned is conversion.

The meaning of the NT Greek.

From the verb STREPHŌ, ’to turn’, plus the preposition EPI, ‘upon’, ‘on’ comes the Greek compound EPISTREPHŌ, ’to turn on or upon’, in the sense of ‘around’, ‘back’. or ‘return’, ‘turn to someone’. ’Turn on a pivot’, ‘return to a source’, ‘wheel about’, ‘convert’. To turn upon the direction in which one was going, as on a pivot, to face the opposite way.

The meaning of OT Hebrew:
There are two Hebrew words that give the sense, and the root, of conversion in the mind of the Spirit and the word of Yah Veh.

HAPHAK; ’Turn’, ‘overturn’, ’turn about’, ‘change’, ’transform’, ‘change into’, ‘reverse’, ‘be upturned’.

SHUB; ‘ Turn back’, ‘return’, ‘go back’, especially ‘return unto’, ‘come back’.

In Haphak the emphasis is on the revolution of the turn; with SHUB, it is upon the ultimate, returning, direction of the turn. Both words are fulfilled in the new testament conception of conversion. It is a radical revolution; and It is a reverse direction, so as to progress in a line directly opposite to the previous course.

New Testament conversion therefore involves three things.:
It involves a radical revolution or turn.
It involves making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced, as a result of turning.
It involves both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden. The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly. JM.

Nobody has or can convert themselves. In conversion man is passive. The first he knows about it is when it has been done in him and to him.

 

[Nang]

Most people have been saying that repentance means to “turn”. I keep telling them it doesn’t mean to turn. Turning is conversion or rather being turned is conversion.

The meaning of the NT Greek.

From the verb STREPHŌ, ’to turn’, plus the preposition EPI, ‘upon’, ‘on’ comes the Greek compound EPISTREPHŌ, ’to turn on or upon’, in the sense of ‘around’, ‘back’. or ‘return’, ‘turn to someone’. ’Turn on a pivot’, ‘return to a source’, ‘wheel about’, ‘convert’. To turn upon the direction in which one was going, as on a pivot, to face the opposite way.

The meaning of OT Hebrew:
There are two Hebrew words that give the sense, and the root, of conversion in the mind of the Spirit and the word of Yah Veh.

HAPHAK; ’Turn’, ‘overturn’, ’turn about’, ‘change’, ’transform’, ‘change into’, ‘reverse’, ‘be upturned’.

SHUB; ‘ Turn back’, ‘return’, ‘go back’, especially ‘return unto’, ‘come back’.

In Haphak the emphasis is on the revolution of the turn; with SHUB, it is upon the ultimate, returning, direction of the turn. Both words are fulfilled in the new testament conception of conversion. It is a radical revolution; and It is a reverse direction, so as to progress in a line directly opposite to the previous course.

New Testament conversion therefore involves three things.:
It involves a radical revolution or turn.
It involves making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced, as a result of turning.
It involves both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden. The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly. JM.

Nobody has or can convert themselves. In conversion man is passive. The first he knows about it is when it has been done in him and to him.

Conversion is the result of repentance.

Repentance is granted by God. Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18; II Timothy 2:25

 

[Truster]

Conversion is the result of repentance.

Repentance is granted by God. Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18; II Timothy 2:25

You really enjoy confusing the matter with nonsense don't you. I'd prefer it if you didn't interfere in matters you have no part in. You have never been converted and the closest you've come to repentance is to read it in a book.

 

[Nang]

You really enjoy confusing the matter with nonsense don't you.

What are you confused about?

The divine cause of conversion, is a soul being granted the capacity to repent.

I'd prefer it if you didn't interfere in matters you have no part in.

I have as much a part in discussing the truths of God on TOL, as you, sir.

You have never been converted and the closest you've come to repentance is to read it in a book.

Your reactions to others is only an emotional knee-jerk. I suspect it is a defense of some kind, on your part. It is too bad, because you kill attempts to have decent scriptural discussion, which could be interesting and edifying.

Why insult me, instead of wanting to share the scriptures I presented, in support of your OP?

 

[Truster]

What are you confused about?

The divine cause of conversion, is a soul being granted the capacity to repent.



I have as much a part in discussing the truths of God on TOL, as you, sir.




Your reactions to others is only an emotional knee-jerk. I suspect it is a defense of some kind, on your part. It is too bad, because you kill attempts to have decent scriptural discussion, which could be interesting and edifying.

Why insult me, instead of wanting to share the scriptures I presented, in support of your OP?

Read my signature.

 

[ClimateSanity]

What is your testimony Meshak? What were the evidences of your conversion?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Coversion

Coversion

1 Cor. 4:7
"For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"​

Folks in Corinth were boasting about their knowledge, who their preferred apostle was, all sorts of things. Paul cuts it all off, rebuking especially the "wisest" of them for taking pride in their achievements. The least little bit of insight (to say nothing of greater perceptions) into the knowledge of God is inaccessible outside of revelation. The only proper stance for those who would understand more is the same humble posture of a recipient.

What do you have that you did not receive? Plainly, nothing.

Conversion (repentance and faith)—is just what a spiritually living person—quickened unto spiritual life (Eze. 36:26)—does.

The Apostle John uses the "seeing" metaphor for faith, and its an excellent one. Seeing is what sighted people do. They just do it. They do not have to think about seeing to see. God gives them light (can't see without it), He gives them the eye (can't see without it), God makes the eye "alive" (can't see without life). And we "see." Its passive, that's just the nature of it. Without God's work, sight/faith isn't there. With his work, and without our help, it is there.

Thomas Watson, A Divine Cordial, Chapter 7, Section 4:

The Lord does not tie Himself to a particular way, or use the same order with all. He comes sometimes in a still small voice. Such as have had godly parents, and have sat under the warm sunshine of religious education, often do not know how or when they were called. The Lord did secretly and gradually instil grace into their hearts, as the dew falls unnoticed in drops. They know by the heavenly effects that they are called, but the time or manner they know not. The hand moves on the clock, but they do not perceive when it moves.

Thus God deals with some. Others are more stubborn and knotty sinners, and God comes to them in a rough wind. He uses more wedges of the law to break their hearts; He deeply humbles them, and shows them they are damned without Christ. Then having ploughed up the fallow ground of their hearts by humiliation, He sows the seed of consolation. He presents Christ and mercy to them, and draws their wills, not only to accept Christ, but passionately to desire, and faithfully to rest upon Him. Thus He wrought upon Paul, and called him from a persecutor to a preacher. This call, though it is more visible than the other, yet is not more real. God’s method in calling sinners may vary, but the effect is still the same.​

AMR

 

[Truster]

1 Cor. 4:7
"For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"​

Folks in Corinth were boasting about their knowledge, who their preferred apostle was, all sorts of things. Paul cuts it all off, rebuking especially the "wisest" of them for taking pride in their achievements. The least little bit of insight (to say nothing of greater perceptions) into the knowledge of God is inaccessible outside of revelation. The only proper stance for those who would understand more is the same humble posture of a recipient.

What do you have that you did not receive? Plainly, nothing.

Conversion (repentance and faith)—is just what a spiritually living person—quickened unto spiritual life (Eze. 36:26)—does.

The Apostle John uses the "seeing" metaphor for faith, and its an excellent one. Seeing is what sighted people do. They just do it. They do not have to think about seeing to see. God gives them light (can't see without it), He gives them the eye (can't see without it), God makes the eye "alive" (can't see without life). And we "see." Its passive, that's just the nature of it. Without God's work, sight/faith isn't there. With his work, and without our help, it is there.

Thomas Watson, A Divine Cordial, Chapter 7, Section 4:

The Lord does not tie Himself to a particular way, or use the same order with all. He comes sometimes in a still small voice. Such as have had godly parents, and have sat under the warm sunshine of religious education, often do not know how or when they were called. The Lord did secretly and gradually instil grace into their hearts, as the dew falls unnoticed in drops. They know by the heavenly effects that they are called, but the time or manner they know not. The hand moves on the clock, but they do not perceive when it moves.

Thus God deals with some. Others are more stubborn and knotty sinners, and God comes to them in a rough wind. He uses more wedges of the law to break their hearts; He deeply humbles them, and shows them they are damned without Christ. Then having ploughed up the fallow ground of their hearts by humiliation, He sows the seed of consolation. He presents Christ and mercy to them, and draws their wills, not only to accept Christ, but passionately to desire, and faithfully to rest upon Him. Thus He wrought upon Paul, and called him from a persecutor to a preacher. This call, though it is more visible than the other, yet is not more real. God’s method in calling sinners may vary, but the effect is still the same.​

AMR

You don't post as one with experience. If you can't find an answer in your books and creeds You have no answers.

I make a point of not entering your threads and I'd appreciate your affording me that same courtesy. We have nothing in common spiritually and the flavour of religious dogma is vile to my taste buds. Thanks.

 

[Truster]

Most people have been saying that repentance means to “turn”. I keep telling them it doesn’t mean to turn. Turning is conversion or rather being turned is conversion.

The meaning of the NT Greek.

From the verb STREPHŌ, ’to turn’, plus the preposition EPI, ‘upon’, ‘on’ comes the Greek compound EPISTREPHŌ, ’to turn on or upon’, in the sense of ‘around’, ‘back’. or ‘return’, ‘turn to someone’. ’Turn on a pivot’, ‘return to a source’, ‘wheel about’, ‘convert’. To turn upon the direction in which one was going, as on a pivot, to face the opposite way.

The meaning of OT Hebrew:
There are two Hebrew words that give the sense, and the root, of conversion in the mind of the Spirit and the word of Yah Veh.

HAPHAK; ’Turn’, ‘overturn’, ’turn about’, ‘change’, ’transform’, ‘change into’, ‘reverse’, ‘be upturned’.

SHUB; ‘ Turn back’, ‘return’, ‘go back’, especially ‘return unto’, ‘come back’.

In Haphak the emphasis is on the revolution of the turn; with SHUB, it is upon the ultimate, returning, direction of the turn. Both words are fulfilled in the new testament conception of conversion. It is a radical revolution; and It is a reverse direction, so as to progress in a line directly opposite to the previous course.

New Testament conversion therefore involves three things.:
It involves a radical revolution or turn.
It involves making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced, as a result of turning.
It involves both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden. The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly. JM.

Nobody has or can convert themselves. In conversion man is passive. The first he knows about it is when it has been done in him and to him.

"seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them".

The evangelism is not seen nor heard inwardly by any except those whom Messiah purchased with His own blood. The ability to convert is as far from the unregenerate as the East is from the West. Unless of course it pleases the Eternal to convert and there shall be joy in the presence of angels.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Faith Is The Instrument

Faith Is The Instrument

Not a few think that repentance is saying a prayer, sorrowful weeping, and some regret. No doubt there is an aspect of these things that may accompany repentance. But the very word repentance is pregnant with the view of actually turning from one's sins. We know from Scripture that the unregenerate cannot turn from their sins until regenerated (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). Repentance is a fruit of the faith that comes from regeneration. Never in Scripture is repentance given a treatment that implies repentance is means to our being born-again versus the way faith is credited with the instrumentality of accomplishing one's re-birth (e.g. Eph. 2:8).

Repentance and faith are both necessary for salvation, but they are related to justification in different ways. Faith alone is the instrument by which Christ is received and rested on as Savior. Justification is by faith, not by repentance. But faith (and therefore justification) cannot exist without repentance.

Repentance is as necessary to salvation by faith as the ankle is to walking. The one does not act apart from the other. I cannot come to Christ in faith without turning from sin in repentance. As one cannot have true faith without faith yielding works, so one cannot have true faith without simultaneously having repentance. Genuine repentance is the proof of one's faith.

Because of the close association between faith and repentance in Scripture (e.g., Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21; Hebrews 6:1), when we talk about conversion in terms of the logical order of salvation, we often speak of these two as alternate sides of one coin, or some similar analogy. In general, then, repentance unto life (Acts 11:18) is the ordinary, proper, and reasonable heartfelt reflex of saving faith (Heb.10:39). The Pharisees demonstrated the exact opposite reaction (Matthew 21:32). This does not negate the historical experience of salvation, whereby we are often brought to great hatred and disgust at our own sin, and turn from it to look unto Jesus (Heb.12:2), the object of our faith.

But it is not the turning that delivers us nor the faculty of faith (nothing in man), but Christ the object of faith outside of man. Nor should we wish to deny that further acts of repentance even after we "first believed" may feel stronger than our earlier repentance. This only makes sense, as stronger faith only opens our heart's understanding further, both to the nature and corruption of sin, as well as the surpassing greatness of the Savior. This is but growth in grace.

“Then God also granted repentance to life to the Gentiles” (Act 11.18). The Arminians hold that it is in our power to repent. No, we can harden our hearts, but we cannot soften them. This crown of freewill has fallen from our head. There is not only impotency in us, but obstinacy (Acts 7:51).

As Thomas Watson wrote, therefore beg God for a repentant spirit. He can make the stony heart bleed. His is a word of creative power. See here.

AMR

 

[Lon]

You don't post as one with experience. If you can't find an answer in your books and creeds You have no answers.

I make a point of not entering your threads and I'd appreciate your affording me that same courtesy. We have nothing in common spiritually and the flavour of religious dogma is vile to my taste buds. Thanks.

Naw. It is on-topic and your need to interact with every post isn't necessary. You can use it to contrast what you believe or ignore it. I don't believe a request to 'not post in your threads' is a reasonable one on TOL and he breaks no rules on TOL to do so. -Lon

Nobody has or can convert themselves. In conversion man is passive. The first he knows about it is when it has been done in him and to him.

I believe I agree with this point. In John 3, Nicodemus couldn't 'born-again' himself. The Lord Jesus Christ gave him a condition to be met, but only our Lord God can make a new Creation. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Ephesians 2:10


It seems to me, AMR's post agrees:

But it is not the turning that delivers us nor the faculty of faith (nothing in man), but Christ the object of faith outside of man.
AMR

Then 'repentance' is what is wrought by conversion, according to his posts. I believe he agrees with you more than you've given him credit for. -Lon

 

[Truster]

Naw. It is on-topic and your need to interact with every post isn't necessary. You can use it to contrast what you believe or ignore it. I don't believe a request to 'not post in your threads' is a reasonable one on TOL and he breaks no rules on TOL to do so. -Lon


I believe I agree with this point. In John 3, Nicodemus couldn't 'born-again' himself. The Lord Jesus Christ gave him a condition to be met, but only our Lord God can make a new Creation. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Ephesians 2:10


It seems to me, AMR's post agrees:
Then 'repentance' is what is wrought by conversion, according to his posts. I believe he agrees with you more than you've given him credit for. -Lon

Same goes with you. I would never dream of reading anything you post. You have some scriptures but like amr you are up to your neck in creeds and the religious traditions of deluded denominations. You and I would never agree and I would never speak peace to you. Based on these facts what would be the point in communicating. Rhetorical?

I don't discuss truth and I don't argue over truth. I post the truth and leave the increase to the Almighty. His word never returns void and it will perform His purpose in whom it is sent.

This is my last word on the matter.

 

[Lon]

Same goes with you. I would never dream of reading anything you post. You have some scriptures but like amr you are up to your neck in creeds and the religious traditions of deluded denominations. You and I would never agree and I would never speak peace to you. Based on these facts what would be the point in communicating. Rhetorical?

I don't discuss truth and I don't argue over truth. I post the truth and leave the increase to the Almighty. His word never returns void and it will perform His purpose in whom it is sent.

This is my last word on the matter.

Colossians 4:6 Proverbs 15:1 2 Timothy 2:25
Give them a moment's consideration.
Your purposeful exclusion of those who belong to the Lord Jesus Christ is not wise imo. Better to err on the side of grace, according to these verses? I do with you, even to this day. Why? Because you don't deserve it

 

[Truster]

Your purposeful exclusion of those who belong to the Lord Jesus Christ is duly noted. Better to err on the side of grace, no? I do with you, even to this day. Why? Because you don't deserve it.

If you belonged to Him I would recognise you and I would love you as a brother.

You don't, I don't and I don't

I hope that is clear.

 

[Lon]

If you belonged to Him I would recognise you and I would love you as a brother.

You don't, I don't and I don't

I hope that is clear.

Romans 14:4 2 Timothy 2:25 Luke 6:27 I pray these are clear.

 

[Truster]

I make a point of never posting anything online that I would say in front of my grandmother, a judge or my Maker.

Oh no meshak is here...

She caught me trusting and sitting at the feet of my Saviour, again.

 

[Truster]

Most people have been saying that repentance means to “turn”. I keep telling them it doesn’t mean to turn. Turning is conversion or rather being turned is conversion.

The meaning of the NT Greek.

From the verb STREPHŌ, ’to turn’, plus the preposition EPI, ‘upon’, ‘on’ comes the Greek compound EPISTREPHŌ, ’to turn on or upon’, in the sense of ‘around’, ‘back’. or ‘return’, ‘turn to someone’. ’Turn on a pivot’, ‘return to a source’, ‘wheel about’, ‘convert’. To turn upon the direction in which one was going, as on a pivot, to face the opposite way.

The meaning of OT Hebrew:
There are two Hebrew words that give the sense, and the root, of conversion in the mind of the Spirit and the word of Yah Veh.

HAPHAK; ’Turn’, ‘overturn’, ’turn about’, ‘change’, ’transform’, ‘change into’, ‘reverse’, ‘be upturned’.

SHUB; ‘ Turn back’, ‘return’, ‘go back’, especially ‘return unto’, ‘come back’.

In Haphak the emphasis is on the revolution of the turn; with SHUB, it is upon the ultimate, returning, direction of the turn. Both words are fulfilled in the new testament conception of conversion. It is a radical revolution; and It is a reverse direction, so as to progress in a line directly opposite to the previous course.

New Testament conversion therefore involves three things.:
It involves a radical revolution or turn.
It involves making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced, as a result of turning.
It involves both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden. The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly. JM.

Nobody has or can convert themselves. In conversion man is passive. The first he knows about it is when it has been done in him and to him.

An attempt to get this thread back on track and free of religious dogma lovers.

Had a chap around for a Bible study tonight and he just drank in this teaching. Like the teaching on repentance he recognised what had happened to him. Amazing grace...halalu Yah and amen.

 

[Lon]

I make a point of never posting anything online that I would say in front of my grandmother, a judge or my Maker.

You may want to proofread. It isn't what you meant to say. As to 'thinking' those thoughts, I'd hope you make it a point to honor Him in your thoughts, words, and deeds; all. Ephesians 4:15

Oh no meshak is here...

She caught me trusting and sitting at the feet of my Saviour, again.

Good place to be.

 

[Lon]

An attempt to get this thread back on track and free of religious dogma lovers.

Er, if it is 'biblical' I will love dogma. The Lord Jesus Christ can be as authoritative (dogmatic) as He desires. You, as a matter of fact, are more dogmatic than my church or systematic theology will ever be. You demands 100% agreement with yourself, even to declare a brother "a brother." Sorry, that's SEVERELY dogmatic. Back to the topic: "If" you are a new creation, you love all of His dogmatic instructions, including those to love and do good to one's enemies, including those who hate you. So, I have no choice but to love you. It is 'dogma' from the Lord Jesus Christ. I try and sit at His feet too, and learn from Him while sitting there. In Him -Lon

 

[Truster]

Er, if it is 'biblical' I will love dogma. The Lord Jesus Christ can be as authoritative (dogmatic) as He desires. You, as a matter of fact, are more dogmatic than my church or systematic theology will ever be. You demands 100% agreement with yourself, even to declare a brother "a brother." Sorry, that's SEVERELY dogmatic. Back to the topic: "If" you are a new creation, you love all of His dogmatic instructions, including those to love and do good to one's enemies, including those who hate you. So, I have no choice but to love you. It is 'dogma' from the Lord Jesus Christ. I try and sit at His feet too, and learn from Him while sitting there. In Him -Lon

You are atheist.