Why do you ask?
Constitution of America by Enyart is right or wrong?
- Thread starter drbrumley
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HistoryKid
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Its because of the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution that we were able to challenge the Divine Right of Kings that had existed since the ideas of Kings existed.
Power is not derived from a "God" head figure like Pharaoh, or Caesar, or any King claiming authority from any deity, that includes Kings claiming authority from the Hebrew God YWHE/EL.
Power is derived from the People, the People and their consent to be ruled and governed by what ever system of government they agree on. A contract/constitution is required to ensure that the people are not exploited by their government.
Power is not derived from a "God" head figure like Pharaoh, or Caesar, or any King claiming authority from any deity, that includes Kings claiming authority from the Hebrew God YWHE/EL.
Power is derived from the People, the People and their consent to be ruled and governed by what ever system of government they agree on. A contract/constitution is required to ensure that the people are not exploited by their government.
HistoryKid
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Excellent point G-Man, you write about what you know.
And in the time the books were written the only place that countered these ideas were some of the more advanced Greek City States.
Or the Holy Spirit could have inspired the writer.
I'd rather keep this discussion rational and sane, if at all possible. The author's experience appears to be limited to monarchies only. Small wonder they are mentioned to the virtual exclusion of other, more progressive forms of government and rule. The bizarre love affair some theonomists have with royalty aside, any manner of infatuation with the rule of kings is a firm step backwards.
Rule by king is glorification of the state, pure and simple.
Rule by king is glorification of the state, pure and simple.
Rule by king is obedience to the God of the Bible, pure and simple.
DrBrumley -
Wow, at first I did not understand what you were trying to get across, but now I can see it clearly. These are very good points that you are making. I am interested to see how this plays out.
The way I understand it is that Israel was going to have its REAL King, Jesus Christ. Prophetically this was going to happen during the Millennial Kingdom. Until that point, Israel had a system setup that was flawed and the monarchy system was part of that flawed system. The true KING, as you have pointed out using Scripture, was to be JESUS CHRIST. So, if we (USA) had a monarchy system in play, it would be just as flawed as the current system, maybe more so depending on WHO we got as king. In essence, the monarchy was not the better governmental system, or at least that is what the Scriptures you have shown are pointing out.
I will watch this thread as it has opened some insights I have not seen before. IMHO, whether monarchy or republic, it is ALL the same fallen nonsense, as this is Satan's world. God's Word says it will REMAIN Satan's world until GOD changes it, NOT us Christians. So the systems in play will always be failed, one is not better than the other, due to fallen man and this being Satan's playground. Plus the main point which is; God is NOT working through the USA or any country at this time, telling them who they should have as king. Israel had God instructing them and watching them every step of the way. We DO NOT.
As the Body, we have a HUGE responsibility/job in this world, and that is to have mankind hear the saving message of Gods Grace. When we get involved in "politics" we divert from that and in the end, having a more "moral" world that is hell-bound does NOTHING and is a complete waste of time. JMHO
:cheers:
You're incapable of a rational discussion and here I was, foolishly hoping to have one. I guess that's not possible for someone like you.
It's the numb unreasonable nature of you people that makes you so dangerous.
It's your blind hatred of anything Christian that prevents you from having a rational discussion with us.
Politburo?
Jefferson -
Well, that is debatable, as the dispensational equation plays a HUGE ROLE. We are NOT Israel, nor are we experiencing the same intervention/guidance that Israel experienced with its government. Nor are we ever told that we were to have a monarchy with a king at the helm. That was Israels.
Paul was silent on the matter, except for telling us to submit to the authority and pay our taxes. No instructions anywhere given, telling Christians to change the government in Ephesus or anywhere else Christians were residing, to a monarchy.
Drbromley brought up good and valid points which still need to be addressed. As stated before, whether monarchy or republic, it is ALL the same fallen nonsense, as this is Satan's world. God's Word says it will REMAIN Satan's world (monarchy or republic) until GOD changes it, NOT us Christians. So the systems in play will always be failed, one is not better than the other, due to fallen man and this being Satan's playground. Plus the main point which is; God is NOT working through the USA or any country at this time, telling them who they should have as king. Israel had God instructing them and watching them every step of the way. We DO NOT.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Provided God is the king, yes?
drbrumley
Well-known member
Absolutely right!
Yes.
I do NOT try and get sidetracked with "political" stuff, as I try and devote whatever time I have to pursuing that the gospel of Grace gets out to a lost and fallen world. After that, I try and devout whatever time and energy I have left to growing in Christ, by studying and applying His Word to my life. Politics, in the end, is a waste of time. God says so, Paul reaffirms this through his epistles by direct revelation from Jesus Christ.
Funny how Christians think getting a "Christian" in the office to rule will make it a "better country" or that changing our governmental system will make it better. God says Satan rules this world and we as Christians are to focus on spiritual issues as we are heavenly people. God will clean house when He comes and He will establish His kingdom on earth and He will rule as King of Kings.
Funny how the Pauline epistles are COMPLETELY silent about Christians overturning governments, Christians being involved in politics, Christians fighting for political causes. Silent except for a few verses on submitting to the powers and paying taxes. Yet there are DOZENS and DOZENS of verses telling us to focus our time and attention on Christ and getting His message of Grace out to the fallen. Then DOZENS & DOZENS of verses telling us to intake Bible doctrine and His Word so that we can be conformed to the image of Christ.
Yet, many Christians get involved in political agendas. If God deemed it important for us to do so, why would He be silent about it and never instruct us to get involved in politics?
If not a monarchy, which form of government do you think that God does endorse and why? Do you support a democratic republic like what we have in America and which is becoming more and more and more prevalent all over the world, or is there some other form of government that you think would be superior to both?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Pettrix,
Politics is nothing more than applied religion and the law (i.e. the law of the land) is perhaps the greatest tool in existence for doing just that. If our government was godly and our laws just, far more people would get saved than do now.
And, just on a side note, while spreading the gospel is vitally important and should definitely be one of our highest priorities, it should not take precedence over our own spiritual growth. God is far more interested in what He is doing in you than what He is doing through you.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Politics is nothing more than applied religion and the law (i.e. the law of the land) is perhaps the greatest tool in existence for doing just that. If our government was godly and our laws just, far more people would get saved than do now.
And, just on a side note, while spreading the gospel is vitally important and should definitely be one of our highest priorities, it should not take precedence over our own spiritual growth. God is far more interested in what He is doing in you than what He is doing through you.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete,
Well, this is where I don't see it that way. It is a very hypothetical scenario and premise. For the only example we have is OT government, which was Israel and God, hand-in-hand. The most important point here is that GOD was working with Israel DIRECTLY, dealing with them through prophets and DIRECT intervention. He has NOT done that with any governmental system since Israel was set aside. There is no example of this being applied and working. NONE!
So, what is a "Godly" government?
One could NOT use Israel as an example, because God is NOT operating through them today or any nation today. Plus, God had one-on-one communication & interaction with them. So everything today would pale in comparison.
Just Laws -
I would agree that "just laws" are better, no doubt.
far more people would get saved than do now.-
I would have to disagree. Morality breeds self-righteousness. When one feels "moral" then they further themselves from the necessity of needing a Savior. The Bible is riddled with examples of that. Israel, when they become "moral" and lived for God as A NATION, they always rebelled and fell back into sin, only then, did they repent and draw closer to God. Once the 2nd generation was living under this prosperous and MORAL time, they became wicked.
Look at the gospels, who came to Christ? Was it the MORAL Scribes & Pharisees, NOPE. It was the prostitutes, thieves and the wicked.
The hardest people to witness to are the "MORAL" people. Mormons are tough, as they follow God's Laws, and therefore feel more righteous. The easier people to witness to are the down-trodden, skid-row, broken down, as they know they are NOT moral.
As a Grace Believer we know that MORALITY breeds self-righteousness. So in the end, there is no example of this theory being applied and working. NONE!
Here is my challenge:
Show me ONE nation/government that has used a monarchy and God's laws & is/was a saved and moral nation? (Israel doesn't count)
Here is another challenge:
Show me ONE verse (not taken out of context of course) that Paul tells Christians to get involved in politics in an attempt to change their current government?
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