ECT Christological Question - Is Jesus really fully man?

[jamie]

I am confused - you state - "As a human, Jesus' atonement could have been for one man but not all men."

According to the Law of Moses, Jesus was executed, his death was not a sacrifice according to the law which prohibited human sacrifice. But going outside of the law what is a human life worth? What was Paul's life worth? With regard to sin Paul was without condemnation, did his death provide atonement for mankind?

Because of his past, Jesus' life was worth more than the lives of everyone in heaven and on earth. There was not anything made that Christ didn't make. He is the Creator. The Creator died for his creation at the behest of the Father. However, he recovered nicely and all is well.

 

[Aner]

According to the Law of Moses, Jesus was executed, his death was not a sacrifice according to the law which prohibited human sacrifice. But going outside of the law what is a human life worth? What was Paul's life worth? With regard to sin Paul was without condemnation, did his death provide atonement for mankind?

Because of his past, Jesus' life was worth more than the lives of everyone in heaven and on earth. There was not anything made that Christ didn't make. He is the Creator. The Creator died for his creation at the behest of the Father. However, he recovered nicely and all is well.

Jamie

Admittedly, while your logic is interesting, I don't find it Biblically compelling. I find that God will use whatever means He chooses to bring salvation. In the case of Jesus - "by a man came death, by a MAN must come the resurrection of the dead" That is what I have to work with Biblically.


I am also still puzzled as to the man Christ Jesus that you earlier informed me could function independently of an incarnated deity. I don't see how this man could have created anything as he himself was created.

 

[Bright Raven]

Jamie

Admittedly, while your logic is interesting, I don't find it Biblically compelling. I find that God will use whatever means He chooses to bring salvation. In the case of Jesus - "by a man came death, by a MAN must come the resurrection of the dead" That is what I have to work with Biblically.


I am also still puzzled as to the man Christ Jesus that you earlier informed me could function independently of an incarnated deity. I don't see how this man could have created anything as he himself was created.

The problem is that you do not see that He is not created. He always was.

John 1:1 Amplified Bible (AMP)

The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

John 1:14 Amplified Bible (AMP)

The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh, and lived among us; and we [actually] saw His glory, glory as belongs to the [One and] only begotten Son of the Father, [the Son who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, who is] full of grace and truth (absolutely free of deception).

Colossians 1:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)

15 He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation.

 

[jamie]

In the case of Jesus - "by a man came death, by a MAN must come the resurrection of the dead" That is what I have to work with Biblically.

Death came by the first Adam ... eternal life comes by the last Adam.

You are not as biblically illiterate as you are presenting yourself, are you?

 

[Aner]

Death came by the first Adam ... eternal life comes by the last Adam.

You are not as biblically illiterate as you are presenting yourself, are you?

Please note - I don't claim to Biblical literate - as can be seen by my focus on inquiry. As to the text in question, here it is here (I think you are quoting a different text) -

21 ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι’ ἀνθρώπου [a]θάνατος, καὶ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν·

 

[jamie]

Please note - I don't claim to Biblical literate - as can be seen by my focus on inquiry. As to the text in question, here it is here (I think you are quoting a different text) -

21 ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι’ ἀνθρώπου [a]θάνατος, καὶ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν·

Yes, the verse I was referring to was verse 45.

You have been on TOL a long time so I wondered if you were putting me on.

I don't mind answering your questions.

 

[Aner]

Yes, the verse I was referring to was verse 45.

You have been on TOL a long time so I wondered if you were putting me on.

I don't mind answering your questions.

I had been on - but gone for various extended periods.

Just curious - what do you think about this text - and the clarity and implications?

 

[themuzicman]

Muzic

Thanks for the answer.

You are stating that Jesus can fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I do. Do I have right?

Capable of, yes.

So here is then is what I am challenged - IF there is a God Jesus that can function independently - and a man Jesus that can fully function (as you just acknowledged) - do we not then have two Jesus? Yet scripture only knows of one Jesus standing at the right hand of God - one mediator - one lord, etc.

I intrigued by your considertion.

One person, two natures. Just because Jesus is fully capable of functioning as a human doesn't preclude the person of Jesus Christ from having the full nature of God as well. There is no logical reason why this couldn't be the case.

 

[jamie]

Just curious - what do you think about this text - and the clarity and implications?

Which text?

 

[patrick jane]

Which text?

verse 45

 

[jamie]

verse 45

Verse 45 seems clear to me as do the other verses in Paul's dissertation.

 

[jamie]

One person, two natures. Just because Jesus is fully capable of functioning as a human doesn't preclude the person of Jesus Christ from having the full nature of God as well. There is no logical reason why this couldn't be the case.

Yes, Jesus learned obedience by the things he suffered just like the rest of us.

It's like Pilate said, "Behold the Man."

 

[themuzicman]

Yes, Jesus learned obedience by the things he suffered just like the rest of us.

It's like Pilate said, "Behold the Man."

Again, nothing illogical, here. Jesus is fully man, these are things men experience. Jesus is also fully God.

 

[jamie]

Again, nothing illogical, here. Jesus is fully man, these are things men experience. Jesus is also fully God.

Indeed, Jesus was like other humans in every respect before he died. (Hebrews 2:17)

 

[Aner]

Which text?

21 ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι’ ἀνθρώπου [a]θάνατος, καὶ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν·

 

[Aner]

Yes, Jesus learned obedience by the things he suffered just like the rest of us.

It's like Pilate said, "Behold the Man."

That is a great text.

First, I am wondering how familiar you are with the hypostatic union? The anhypostasis of the human nature of Jesus?

Based on those concepts - here is my question - what learns - a "person" or a nature?

If a "person" - which person - the divine person or the human person?

 

[Aner]

Indeed, Jesus was like other humans in every respect before he died. (Hebrews 2:17)

So Jesus was a human person - independent of the divine person?

What I am challenged by is that I see two persons - but scripture only provides us one Lord, one mediator - one Jesus sitting at the right hand of God.

 

[Aner]

Again, nothing illogical, here. Jesus is fully man, these are things men experience. Jesus is also fully God.

Muzic

Thanks for the input.

Here is what I am challenged by - what do you mean "fully man"? Was Jesus a human person who could function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I do??

Thanks

Aner

 

[jamie]

21 ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι’ ἀνθρώπου [a]θάνατος, καὶ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν·

For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
(1 Corinthians 15:21)​

Adam sinned because sin is human nature and because of human nature it has been appointed for everyone to die once. (Hebrews 9:27)

However, because Jesus Christ paid the penalty of the second death everyone will be resurrected.
(1 Corinthians 15:22)

 

[jamie]

First, I am wondering how familiar you are with the hypostatic union?

I don't subscribe to Catholic legends or councils. A fully God person is immortal.