Mustard Seed
New member
Sarcastikus said:
I think you don't quite understand the difference between the supernatural experiences so often claimed by mystics as contrasted to the supernatural claimed by the Judeo-Chritian traditions.
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- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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I think you don't quite understand the difference between the supernatural experiences so often claimed by mystics as contrasted to the supernatural claimed by the Judeo-Chritian traditions.
Mustard Seed
New member
Sarcastikus said:
What is your definition of God?
oftenbuzzard
New member
Sarcastikus said:
Better stock up on sunscreen
SPF 3,000,000
Sarcastikus
New member
Mustard Seed said:
Defining God? That's always an interesting project!
I believe that any definition of God, including this one, is incomplete.
Two of my favorite phrases to "meditate" on also form part of how I "define" God:
"God is everything, but not anything."
- (pseudo-) Dionysius Areopagite
"God is a sphere whose circumference is nowhere and whose center is everywhere"
- Nicholas of Cusa
Sarcastikus
New member
oftenbuzzard said:
Thanks for your concern!
oftenbuzzard
New member
Sarcastikus said:
Meditate on this and it will change your life:
A man without a horse is like a foot.
Mustard Seed
New member
Sarcastikus said:
Hmmm... I'll grant you it follows the tradition of the Nicean definition (so it follows that I disagree with it, I have a hard time swallowing a God who must be a contradiction of/to truth/intellegence).
Do you really find God so disconected from logic and reason? Do you really believe in God or is this simply the optimistic/'mystical' Pascal's Wager take on what God might, or might not, be?
Mustard Seed
New member
oftenbuzzard said:
Of course any action, or inaction, thought, or absence thereof, changes one's life.
Sarcastikus said:
God has revealed His character and attributes in creation, in the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Word of God, the Bible. The above quotes are nonsense and will not lead to a love relationship with the Living God and eternal life in His presence. God is personal and knowable. We cannot know Him exhaustively, but what He has revealed, is knowable and truthful.
Don't you mean "publicans?"quantumspirit said:
Mustard Seed
New member
godrulz said:
How are they all that different from the creeds? How is that different from a God that's omnipresent but is utterly seperate from creation?
Mustard Seed
New member
Lighthouse said:
Where do you get that? While Christ wasn't in agreement with many of the deeds of the publicans they generaly got along alot better with Him than did either the Scribes, Pharisees, or Saducees. In fact one of the criticisms leveled against Christ was that he kept company with publicans and harlots much of the time.
oftenbuzzard
New member
And when them publicans repented they became REpublicans!
GLORY!!!
GLORY!!!
Sarcastikus
New member
Mustard Seed said:
Logic and reason are useful tools, but I believe God transcends those categories and the dualism that results from the limitations the human mind must deal with when trying to understand/analyze the infinite (God, the universe, etc.) In order for things to be contradictory they must be linked at a deeper level in order for them to appear to be opposite. At the same time God is also immanent in that God is the ground of being, that without which existence would not exist. In other words: God isn't a being, God is being; God doesn't exist, God is existence. Similar ideas are found in some of the early Church Fathers, among philosopher/theologians such as Tillich, Shankara, Nagarjuna, Hartshorne, and Nishida, and in the writings of mystics from all traditions.
oftenbuzzard
New member
Sarcastikus said:
Most of these are sizzling in HELL now.
Dude, you need Jesus!
Sarcastikus
New member
oftenbuzzard said:
Why would they be "sizzling in Hell"? For contemplating the nature of God and reality? Assuming they were placed in Hell by God, why would God punish them for using the gift (the ability to think, etc.) given to them by Him? That's like giving a child a piano, teaching them to play, and then punishing them when they play something you don't like. I would guess that at least one of the people listed (Nagarjuna) must have escaped such a fate simply because he lived about 2 centuries before Jesus, of course Yahweh does tend to be a vengeful deity, so He probably made punishment retroactive.
As for needing Jesus, who knows? Maybe someday I'll tire of learning and contemplation, put on some blinders and join you in the religion about Jesus.
oftenbuzzard
New member
Sarcastikus
New member
oftenbuzzard said:
Okay, okay, we're all imperfect in some way, it's part of physical existence, etc. But what of the millions and millions of people who lived prior to, or never heard of Jesus and his teachings? Are they banished to Hell simply because they happened to be born at the wrong time, or because they didn't live in the right place? If that is the case then something is seriously screwed-up. What of free-will? Are we to be punished because we exercise it? Ultimately salvation isn't up to anyone except the individual because the individual is the one who has to choose a plan of salvation.
Mustard Seed
New member
Sarcastikus said:
Do you believe God transcends logic and reason, or merely that he transcends human logic and reason? Or somewhere inbetween?
I think I somewhat see what you are seeing with a base linking of opposites. One cannot exist without the other. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong.
I would also challenge the statement that "God is existence". Where is that inherently a requisit? I mean God's existance can be tied to the existance of all other things, but that does not mean that God is all other things, or that he is their 'existance'--whatever that entails.
Mustard Seed
New member
Sarcastikus said:
A prophet of God's words answering your question. Please note that marriage is one itemd tied to Salvation. We also hold baptisms by proxy for the dead, along with other vital ordinances, are carried out to the same effect as marriage, which is the key point described below--
Vol. 18, p.51
Here is another question. A great many of those good people abroad,
who, with their ancestors, back for seventeen hundred years, while God
had no authority or Church on the earth, have gone down to their
graves, without knowing anything about the pattern of marriage as
recorded here in the Bible, which is eternal in its nature. What are
you going to do with them? I answer, it would look rather hard if
there was no provision made for them, would it not? There are about
seventeen centuries or generations, and if we compute a thousand
million of people for every generation, coming upon and passing away
from the earth, we shall have about fifty thousand million altogether,
[p.52] who have gone down to their graves without baptism, without the
administration of the ordinances, without divine authority to
administer in their marriages! Do you suppose that the Lord has made
no provision for all these things? All must have a chance. There is
not an individual that ever lived upon the earth, from the days of
Adam down to this time, whether it was among the heathen or savages,
who never heard of Jesus or of the true God, and who went down to his
grave in total ignorance; there never was a man or woman on the face
of the globe, but what will have an opportunity, either in this life
or in the life to come, to obey and enjoy the benefits of the Gospel
of Salvation.
Vol. 18, p.52
"But did you not say that there was no opportunity for them to attend
to these ordinances in the life to come?" I did. "Then why did you
say, that there will be an opportunity for them?" There is quite a
difference between having an opportunity, and attending to the
ordinances. You can not attend to the latter in the life to come.
Parties who have died in this generation or in the generations passed,
without having an opportunity to be baptized by a man holding
authority, will have an opportunity of hearing the Gospel in the life
to come; but they can not attend personally to the ordinances thereof.
Why? Because. God has ordained that men, here in the flesh, shall be
baptized in this life; or, if they die without a knowledge of the
Gospel and its ordinances, that their friends in the flesh, in the day
of his power, when he brings forth the everlasting Gospel, shall
officiate for them, and in their behalf. This is another peculiarity
of the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints?baptism for the dead.
Vol. 18, p.52
You see a Temple building here, east of this tabernacle, and a great
many inquiries are made respecting the nature of this building. Some
suppose that we are going to hold meetings in it, and preach to the
people; but no, that pertains to the tabernacle. God has pointed out
the uses of a Temple by new revelation, the same as he pointed out the
object of a tabernacle in the days of Moses, and the object of the
Temple of the Lord in the days of Solomon; and among those objects he
has told us that in the basement of the Temple there should be a
baptismal font. What for? That those who are living here on the earth
may be baptized for and in behalf of those who die without a knowledge
of the Gospel.
Vol. 18, p.52
Does that reach back to all generations who have died in ignorance?
Yes. To all our ancestors? Yes; it reaches back to our fathers, our
grandfathers and their progenitors away back to ancient days, when the
Priesthood was upon the earth. Baptism for the dead! The same thing
was attended to in ancient; times, so that we have not got a new
pattern, it is the old pattern renewed. Paul says, in the 15th chapter
of the first of Corinthians?"Else what shall they do who are baptized
for the dead? if the dead rise not at all, why are they then baptized
for the dead?" Sure enough! it was a strong argument to prove the
resurrection of the dead, that the people who belonged to the ancient
Christian Churches had the privilege of going and being baptized for
those who had died before the Gospel came among them.
Vol. 18, p.52
Now do you not see that we are not so uncharitable as a great many
would suppose? Instead of sending all the generations who lived in
former ages to hell, because they did not happen to hear the Gospel,
and because there was no Christian Church [p.53] upon the earth; I say
that, instead of sending them all to an endless hell, God has made
provisions that the living may act for and in behalf of the dead. The
ordinances thus attended to here on the earth in behalf of the dead,
will be recorded and scaled here by proper authority; and what is thus
recorded and sealed here will be recorded and sealed in the heavens in
behalf of those individuals; and if those spirits who are in prison
and in the eternal worlds will repent when the Gospel is taken to
them, they can have the benefit of the ordinances administered for and
in their behalf here, and they will have part in the first
resurrection.
Vol. 18, p.53
Then again, if baptism for the dead is true, every other divine
ordinance is equally true and necessary for the dead, for one is just
as consistent as the other. The laying on of hands in confirmation
upon a person that is living here in the flesh, for and in behalf of
those who are in their graves, is just as consistent as baptism for
the dead.
Vol. 18, p.53
Again, if our fathers and mothers, grandfathers and grandmothers, have
died without being married by divine authority, the same authority
that would cause a people to act for the dead in relation to baptism,
would cause them to act for and in behalf of the dead in relation to
their marriage ceremonies too. Such a plan gives them all a chance.
For there are no marryings, nor baptisms, nor confirmations, in and
after the resurrection. The resurrected dead can do none of these
things; but if it is done here for them, and they will accept of it,
it will be acknowledged in the heavens. Hence, here is another
peculiarity of the Latter-day Saints pertaining to the Temple, the
house of the Lord to be built in the tops of the mountains in the
latter days, as Isaiah says in the second chapter?"Many people shall
say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of
the God of Jacob, that he may teach us of his ways, that we may walk
in his paths." A Temple, therefore, instead of being a place for
teaching and preaching, is a place for the administration of holy
ordinances.
Vol. 18, p.53
Another question. A great many have wondered why so many people in the
eastern, southern and middle States have been stirred up for a number
of years past in searching out their ancestors. Now the Lord does a
great many things unknown to the people, and this is one of them. The
people do not know why they are interested in their ancestry, but they
are wrought upon by some invisible operation, and they feel very
anxious to know about their progenitors. I think that some four
hundred different families have already got extended family records,
tracing their ancestry back from generation to generation to the first
settlements of the New England States, and then back into Old England
if it is possible, to make out the connection. Do they know what they
are doing this for? No; they feel wrought upon, that is all they know
about it. Now I will tell you why it is, for a great many of the
people in this congregation, and many who are scattered through the
villages, towns and settlements in this Territory, emigrated from the
New England States, and they had fathers and mothers, grandfathers and
grandmothers, and ancestors, now in their graves, who were just as
pure, upright, virtuous and honest in their feelings as we their
children are. Now we are going to act for them. We have not time to
search up all these genealogies, but all we have to do is to go and
get the books which the Lord has wrought upon them to get up,
containing the names of hundreds [p.54] and thousands of the dead, and
we will receive baptism, confirmation and marriage for eternity, and
all the ordinances of the Gospel for them, that they, if they will
receive what is done for them, may come forth in the resurrection, and
inherit all that their children will inherit. Why? Because they were
worthy of it. Our pilgrim fathers were a good people, just as worthy
as we are, but unfortunately they did not happen to live in the time
that God has set for establishing his kingdom on the earth, and
sending his angels from the heavens.
Vol. 18, p.54
Thus you see that this Gospel reaches after the dead as well as the
living. Our Savior set the example in regard to this matter, for we
are told that when his body lay in the tomb, his spirit was not idle;
and instead of going off into the heavens and sitting down there for
three days and three nights in perfect idleness, he had something to
do, and while his body lay in the tomb, his spirit went and opened the
prison doors in which were confined those who were drowned in the
flood. What! Were they in prison? Yes. Did Jesus truly visit them?
Yes. Did he preach to them? Yes. Where have we this recorded? In
Peter's declaration. He says that, "Jesus was put to death in the
flesh, but quickened in the spirit, by which he also went and preached
to the spirits which were in prison, which sometime were disobedient
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while
the ark was preparing." Oh indeed; He went to those old antediluvians
then, that had not received their resurrection, and preached to them.
What did he preach to them? The following verses tell us what he
preached. What would you think he preached? Says one?"If he followed
the examples of our sectarian preachers, he would go and tell them
that their doom was irrevocably fixed, that they were cast down to
prison, never to be recovered; that as the tree falls so it lies, and
that there was no hope in their case." Well, that was not the kind of
preaching that Jesus did to the antediluvian spirits. "For, for this
cause," says Peter, "was the Gospel preached to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, and live
according to God in the spirit." Though they were in the spirit world,
without any bodies, yet they had the privilege of hearing the same
Gospel that Jesus preached to those here in the flesh. They could
repent, for that is an act of the mind; they could believe in Jesus,
for that is also an act of the mind; but the spirits could not be
baptized, for that is an act of the body, it is something that
pertains to this life. Jesus could preach repentance to them, he could
preach the same Gospel to those antediluvians that he had preached to
men in the flesh, and they could then be judged according to men in
the flesh, and live according to God in the spirit. Men in the flesh
could be baptized for them, and they could come forth and receive all
the blessings of those who received the Gospel in the flesh.
--Brigham Young
taken from
http://www.mormonismi.net/jod/18.txt
Here is another question. A great many of those good people abroad,
who, with their ancestors, back for seventeen hundred years, while God
had no authority or Church on the earth, have gone down to their
graves, without knowing anything about the pattern of marriage as
recorded here in the Bible, which is eternal in its nature. What are
you going to do with them? I answer, it would look rather hard if
there was no provision made for them, would it not? There are about
seventeen centuries or generations, and if we compute a thousand
million of people for every generation, coming upon and passing away
from the earth, we shall have about fifty thousand million altogether,
[p.52] who have gone down to their graves without baptism, without the
administration of the ordinances, without divine authority to
administer in their marriages! Do you suppose that the Lord has made
no provision for all these things? All must have a chance. There is
not an individual that ever lived upon the earth, from the days of
Adam down to this time, whether it was among the heathen or savages,
who never heard of Jesus or of the true God, and who went down to his
grave in total ignorance; there never was a man or woman on the face
of the globe, but what will have an opportunity, either in this life
or in the life to come, to obey and enjoy the benefits of the Gospel
of Salvation.
Vol. 18, p.52
"But did you not say that there was no opportunity for them to attend
to these ordinances in the life to come?" I did. "Then why did you
say, that there will be an opportunity for them?" There is quite a
difference between having an opportunity, and attending to the
ordinances. You can not attend to the latter in the life to come.
Parties who have died in this generation or in the generations passed,
without having an opportunity to be baptized by a man holding
authority, will have an opportunity of hearing the Gospel in the life
to come; but they can not attend personally to the ordinances thereof.
Why? Because. God has ordained that men, here in the flesh, shall be
baptized in this life; or, if they die without a knowledge of the
Gospel and its ordinances, that their friends in the flesh, in the day
of his power, when he brings forth the everlasting Gospel, shall
officiate for them, and in their behalf. This is another peculiarity
of the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints?baptism for the dead.
Vol. 18, p.52
You see a Temple building here, east of this tabernacle, and a great
many inquiries are made respecting the nature of this building. Some
suppose that we are going to hold meetings in it, and preach to the
people; but no, that pertains to the tabernacle. God has pointed out
the uses of a Temple by new revelation, the same as he pointed out the
object of a tabernacle in the days of Moses, and the object of the
Temple of the Lord in the days of Solomon; and among those objects he
has told us that in the basement of the Temple there should be a
baptismal font. What for? That those who are living here on the earth
may be baptized for and in behalf of those who die without a knowledge
of the Gospel.
Vol. 18, p.52
Does that reach back to all generations who have died in ignorance?
Yes. To all our ancestors? Yes; it reaches back to our fathers, our
grandfathers and their progenitors away back to ancient days, when the
Priesthood was upon the earth. Baptism for the dead! The same thing
was attended to in ancient; times, so that we have not got a new
pattern, it is the old pattern renewed. Paul says, in the 15th chapter
of the first of Corinthians?"Else what shall they do who are baptized
for the dead? if the dead rise not at all, why are they then baptized
for the dead?" Sure enough! it was a strong argument to prove the
resurrection of the dead, that the people who belonged to the ancient
Christian Churches had the privilege of going and being baptized for
those who had died before the Gospel came among them.
Vol. 18, p.52
Now do you not see that we are not so uncharitable as a great many
would suppose? Instead of sending all the generations who lived in
former ages to hell, because they did not happen to hear the Gospel,
and because there was no Christian Church [p.53] upon the earth; I say
that, instead of sending them all to an endless hell, God has made
provisions that the living may act for and in behalf of the dead. The
ordinances thus attended to here on the earth in behalf of the dead,
will be recorded and scaled here by proper authority; and what is thus
recorded and sealed here will be recorded and sealed in the heavens in
behalf of those individuals; and if those spirits who are in prison
and in the eternal worlds will repent when the Gospel is taken to
them, they can have the benefit of the ordinances administered for and
in their behalf here, and they will have part in the first
resurrection.
Vol. 18, p.53
Then again, if baptism for the dead is true, every other divine
ordinance is equally true and necessary for the dead, for one is just
as consistent as the other. The laying on of hands in confirmation
upon a person that is living here in the flesh, for and in behalf of
those who are in their graves, is just as consistent as baptism for
the dead.
Vol. 18, p.53
Again, if our fathers and mothers, grandfathers and grandmothers, have
died without being married by divine authority, the same authority
that would cause a people to act for the dead in relation to baptism,
would cause them to act for and in behalf of the dead in relation to
their marriage ceremonies too. Such a plan gives them all a chance.
For there are no marryings, nor baptisms, nor confirmations, in and
after the resurrection. The resurrected dead can do none of these
things; but if it is done here for them, and they will accept of it,
it will be acknowledged in the heavens. Hence, here is another
peculiarity of the Latter-day Saints pertaining to the Temple, the
house of the Lord to be built in the tops of the mountains in the
latter days, as Isaiah says in the second chapter?"Many people shall
say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of
the God of Jacob, that he may teach us of his ways, that we may walk
in his paths." A Temple, therefore, instead of being a place for
teaching and preaching, is a place for the administration of holy
ordinances.
Vol. 18, p.53
Another question. A great many have wondered why so many people in the
eastern, southern and middle States have been stirred up for a number
of years past in searching out their ancestors. Now the Lord does a
great many things unknown to the people, and this is one of them. The
people do not know why they are interested in their ancestry, but they
are wrought upon by some invisible operation, and they feel very
anxious to know about their progenitors. I think that some four
hundred different families have already got extended family records,
tracing their ancestry back from generation to generation to the first
settlements of the New England States, and then back into Old England
if it is possible, to make out the connection. Do they know what they
are doing this for? No; they feel wrought upon, that is all they know
about it. Now I will tell you why it is, for a great many of the
people in this congregation, and many who are scattered through the
villages, towns and settlements in this Territory, emigrated from the
New England States, and they had fathers and mothers, grandfathers and
grandmothers, and ancestors, now in their graves, who were just as
pure, upright, virtuous and honest in their feelings as we their
children are. Now we are going to act for them. We have not time to
search up all these genealogies, but all we have to do is to go and
get the books which the Lord has wrought upon them to get up,
containing the names of hundreds [p.54] and thousands of the dead, and
we will receive baptism, confirmation and marriage for eternity, and
all the ordinances of the Gospel for them, that they, if they will
receive what is done for them, may come forth in the resurrection, and
inherit all that their children will inherit. Why? Because they were
worthy of it. Our pilgrim fathers were a good people, just as worthy
as we are, but unfortunately they did not happen to live in the time
that God has set for establishing his kingdom on the earth, and
sending his angels from the heavens.
Vol. 18, p.54
Thus you see that this Gospel reaches after the dead as well as the
living. Our Savior set the example in regard to this matter, for we
are told that when his body lay in the tomb, his spirit was not idle;
and instead of going off into the heavens and sitting down there for
three days and three nights in perfect idleness, he had something to
do, and while his body lay in the tomb, his spirit went and opened the
prison doors in which were confined those who were drowned in the
flood. What! Were they in prison? Yes. Did Jesus truly visit them?
Yes. Did he preach to them? Yes. Where have we this recorded? In
Peter's declaration. He says that, "Jesus was put to death in the
flesh, but quickened in the spirit, by which he also went and preached
to the spirits which were in prison, which sometime were disobedient
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while
the ark was preparing." Oh indeed; He went to those old antediluvians
then, that had not received their resurrection, and preached to them.
What did he preach to them? The following verses tell us what he
preached. What would you think he preached? Says one?"If he followed
the examples of our sectarian preachers, he would go and tell them
that their doom was irrevocably fixed, that they were cast down to
prison, never to be recovered; that as the tree falls so it lies, and
that there was no hope in their case." Well, that was not the kind of
preaching that Jesus did to the antediluvian spirits. "For, for this
cause," says Peter, "was the Gospel preached to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, and live
according to God in the spirit." Though they were in the spirit world,
without any bodies, yet they had the privilege of hearing the same
Gospel that Jesus preached to those here in the flesh. They could
repent, for that is an act of the mind; they could believe in Jesus,
for that is also an act of the mind; but the spirits could not be
baptized, for that is an act of the body, it is something that
pertains to this life. Jesus could preach repentance to them, he could
preach the same Gospel to those antediluvians that he had preached to
men in the flesh, and they could then be judged according to men in
the flesh, and live according to God in the spirit. Men in the flesh
could be baptized for them, and they could come forth and receive all
the blessings of those who received the Gospel in the flesh.
--Brigham Young
taken from
http://www.mormonismi.net/jod/18.txt
To sum it up in the words of Joseph Smith--
[God is] acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He [orders] all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.
--Joseph Smith Jr.
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