ECT Calling D'ists: please render Acts 13:32-39

[Nihilo]

And the way to what you have been after is not the way of going by "well, this that this individual is saying makes sense, I think I'll run with it."

Of course not. But it's just as foolhardy to reject a notion just because of the way in which it presented itself to you.

That is no more than a different version of your prior, Calvinist vacuum.

What you are doing is going by the reasoning of men that an IP's entire outlook was so long ago blinded by.

There is no reasoning with the guy - he long ago lost his mind in his OVER reliance on the ever endless "perhaps this" that; the other, that is "the traditions of men."

Might as well hand a stranger one's wallet under that kind of a self-delusion; under conclusions based on "perhaps" they will return it, untouched...

There's no risk in believing in an unbroken continuation of the college of bishops, who were instituted by the Apostles, and participated with the Apostles in the first Church council, recorded for us right in mid-Acts.

The way of attempting to understand the Scripture through books supposedly "based on" or "about" it - OVER relied on.

The thing to do is to wrestle with Romans 9 itself - like Jacob did with that angel - until it gives you its answer.

It gave me its answer. I wrestled with this chapter for about two decades now. I know that the bishops' teaching on divine providence is correct, and that Calvinism is incorrect, I just didn't know how to read Romans chapter nine without mental relics of Calvinism like small bugs crushed on my windshield.

What does said wrestling with look like?

Endless questions about what operating principles does Paul appear to be not only making use of, but also, pointing back to as to other possible operating principles?

What one is to seek out first, is the answer to the question "what is this house here comprised of - what possible operating principles does it appear to point back to?"

Once those are identified, then they are applied to attempting to understand the intended meaning of what is being said.

One then also now has various operating principles in hand by which to attempt to study out the intended meaning of other, in this case, of Paul's various assertions.

See all this here...

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

All imply a study approach of some sort was being applied.

It behooves each of us to work it all backwards from its results, to the operating principles said results cannot but point back to.

Working the college of bishops backwards from its results isn't the way I went about it, not being reared Catholic or Orthodox or Anglican (no exposure to even the notion of bishops as a child, young man and adult, not until my 30s did I really understand the contrast between Christian traditions that involved bishops, and those that don't). I studied and wrestled and finally took a step back to just look around at the whole landscape, and that landscape is history, and history says that the Body of Christ began with bishops, the Apostles were bishops, the Apostles ordained bishops, and bishops ordained bishops, and there are bishops today. I worked forward from Scripture, to the results, being bishops today.

For as the following asserts - The Scripture is more than able to make known to its more diligent student, its intended meanings...

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.

Scripture is the door. I don't worship the door. Who is through the door is the Maker. I worship Him, I believe in Him, I love Him, and He has given us the college of bishops, and they've published a catechism for us.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-of-the-Catholic-Church&p=4812650#post4812650

 

[Danoh]

Never mind, Ni.

Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you, nonetheless.

 

[Nihilo]

Never mind, Ni.

:chuckle: We do try our best . . . .

Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you, nonetheless.

And to you.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Because he is referring to ALL OF IT.

You made this up.


Acts
13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:


Acts
13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

 

[Interplanner]

Do you think God's plans for Israel are finished?

There are no plans for nations, just for believers. It always was that way. A lot of that one nation believed at times, but never all of them, because the NT says retroactively it never was about the whole nation. Rom 9:6-13.

God was working with the Amorites at exactly the same time, for several hundred years, hoping they would straighten up. Their time ran out and they were subdued.

Not all Israel are Israel, and there is an Israel of God. The denominator of each of those expressions is a thing called faith in God/the Gospel that can be done by non-Jews.

The wrath of God has come fully upon Israel; 1 Thess 2. Not for the death of Christ but for not taking the message of that death to the nations as a mission, as Paul did.

 

[Interplanner]

You made this up.


Acts
13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:


Acts
13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Then the quote from Isaiah 55 is meaningless, which I already knew you thought.

You have no idea what is going on. You are one D'ist proof text at a time which clunks along until you take the TOTALITY of the NT on a topic. You defy Acts 2, 3, 13, 26. You say the only New covenant passage to consider is Heb 8:8. You are just a slave of Chafer, who said the Bible does not make sense until he came. You think the city is the Jews because you refuse to read the rest of Hebrews on the unshakeable city that is to come, which was not the place in Judea that became the capitol. Because the Cornerstone of the city, the stone that was laid, ALWAYS was Christ.

13:32 is not about one particular promise. the greek expression is NEVER used that way. Here we are in the end of a sermon on the history, destiny, meaning of Israel and you detonate it with your one proof text for Chafer at a time approach.

That's why at the end of the day, you will never sound like the apostles and what they preached. It's your choice.

Your stupid translation also refuses to use the correct "promises" where it refers to David, and put "mercies." What kind of a klutz are you?

 

[Right Divider]

There are no plans for nations, just for believers. It always was that way. A lot of that one nation believed at times, but never all of them, because the NT says retroactively it never was about the whole nation. Rom 9:6-13.

Matt 25:31-33 (AKJV/PCE)​

(25:31) ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (25:32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: (25:33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
​

The Son of man will gather all nations and separate them one from another.

When did this happen?

 

[Danoh]

There are no plans for nations, just for believers. It always was that way. A lot of that one nation believed at times, but never all of them, because the NT says retroactively it never was about the whole nation. Rom 9:6-13.

God was working with the Amorites at exactly the same time, for several hundred years, hoping they would straighten up. Their time ran out and they were subdued.

Not all Israel are Israel, and there is an Israel of God. The denominator of each of those expressions is a thing called faith in God/the Gospel that can be done by non-Jews.

The wrath of God has come fully upon Israel; 1 Thess 2. Not for the death of Christ but for not taking the message of that death to the nations as a mission, as Paul did.

Amusing, all that.

You have merely proven to all but to yourself in your obvious self-deception, once more, what you have been after all along: a following.

Of who?

Of you - someone who's supposed "Bible based expertise" is nothing more than the obvious result of decades wasted in "let me see what Drs. So and So had had to 'perhaps...about'" this; that; the other...

Exactly why you point your ever dishonest finger at a Chafer, or whomever - your ever erroneous, books based entrenched mis-perception that the conclusions of some other book writer are to be weighed against that of your own book writers. :doh:

There is your supposed Scripturally based discerment.

No...thanks.

Find some greater fool to follow you in your books based "wisdom."

Romans 5: 6- 8 towards you.

 

[Danoh]

Then the quote from Isaiah 55 is meaningless, which I already knew you thought.

You have no idea what is going on. You are one D'ist proof text at a time which clunks along until you take the TOTALITY of the NT on a topic. You defy Acts 2, 3, 13, 26. You say the only New covenant passage to consider is Heb 8:8. You are just a slave of Chafer, who said the Bible does not make sense until he came. You think the city is the Jews because you refuse to read the rest of Hebrews on the unshakeable city that is to come, which was not the place in Judea that became the capitol. Because the Cornerstone of the city, the stone that was laid, ALWAYS was Christ.

13:32 is not about one particular promise. the greek expression is NEVER used that way. Here we are in the end of a sermon on the history, destiny, meaning of Israel and you detonate it with your one proof text for Chafer at a time approach.

That's why at the end of the day, you will never sound like the apostles and what they preached. It's your choice.

Your stupid translation also refuses to use the correct "promises" where it refers to David, and put "mercies." What kind of a klutz are you?

Yeah, the promises - plural - mentioned through out the following, and "as it is written..."

Jeremiah 33:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah the second time, while he was yet shut up in the court of the prison, saying, 33:2 Thus saith the LORD the maker thereof, the LORD that formed it, to establish it; the LORD is his name; 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. 33:4 For thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, which are thrown down by the mounts, and by the sword; 33:5 They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city. 33:6 Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth. 33:7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first. 33:8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me. 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it. 33:10 Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast, 33:11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD. 33:12 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Again in this place, which is desolate without man and without beast, and in all the cities thereof, shall be an habitation of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down. 33:13 In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the south, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the LORD. 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. 33:23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

There is a good part of Acts 13...

The Resurrection Promise that their promised resurrection, together with, and unto, its various promises, is based on.

And what does Paul alone...do with all that?

On the one hand he re-asserts that had been the case.

On the other, he then asserts that was now on hold: using it's very foundation - the Lord's Own Resurrection - together with the miracles the Lord would confirm His Words to Israel thru Paul by, to attempt to save some of them.

For the wrath had come upon Israel as a nation, to the outermost, they had been concluded fallen as a nation, their Prophetic Clock had been stopped, and each passing minute, hour, day, month, year, decade, had their nation headed towards 70AD on their own, Acts 7; 1 Thessalonians; Romans 1-3; Romans 9-11; etc.

God in His Grace during "this Mystery" Age of Grace, still longsuffering, that He might save at least some of the seed of Jacob.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

All because of...Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You have no idea what is going on.

Irony. Show us where 'the promise' changes in Acts 13.
We will wait.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Your stupid translation also refuses to use the correct "promises" where it refers to David, and put "mercies." What kind of a klutz are you?

Your feathers sure ruffle easily...Bible unbeliever.

 

[john w]

There are no plans for nations, just for believers.

You made that up, speculated that.


Why?

Zech. 8 KJV

1 Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying,

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

6 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts.

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

9 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.

11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the Lord of hosts.

12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

14 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the Lord of hosts, and I repented not:

15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.

16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord.

18 And the word of the Lord of hosts came unto me, saying,

19 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.

20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.



You: Figurative...the days of literalism are over.


Wicked deceiver, theft artist, attempting to steal promises, and the promise.....that are not/is not, yours.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You made that up, speculated that.


Why?

Zech. 8 KJV

1 Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying,

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

6 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts.

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

9 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.

11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the Lord of hosts.

12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

14 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the Lord of hosts, and I repented not:

15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.

16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord.

18 And the word of the Lord of hosts came unto me, saying,

19 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.

20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.



You: Figurative...the days of literalism are over.


Wicked deceiver, theft artist, attempting to steal promises, and the promise.....that are not/is not, yours.

Fulfilled "in Christ", Sam.

 

[john w]

Fulfilled "in Christ", Sam.

Yes siree, that "fulfilled in Christ" can be employed to answer any/all questions,and "prove" anything, Boris.

 

[musterion]

Is it?

Yes it is, but I'm not going to read it to you.

 

[Right Divider]

Irony. Show us where 'the promise' changes in Acts 13.
We will wait.

Just don't hold your breath while you're waiting...

 

[musterion]

Insisting people are wrong without laser-targeting exactly where they're wrong, and then never clearly explaining what is right, is a sign of an ignorant brainwashed cultist or a fraud/troll.

"...you must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he is wrong."

C.S. Lewis on bulverism.

 

[Danoh]

Insisting people are wrong without laser-targeting exactly where they're wrong, and then never clearly explaining what is right, is a sign of an ignorant brainwashed cultist or a fraud/troll.



C.S. Lewis on bulverism.

Given that you and your pals often do that as not, I'd say you shouldn't be so hard on yourself and your pals...

But I won't.

For we both know yours is your same old fraud of a self-righteous double-standard.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[musterion]

Given that you and your pals often do that as not, I'd say you shouldn't be so hard on yourself and your pals.

Hypocrite,

That right there is not only a lie, it is a perfect gem of bulverism. You are the undisputed master of it on TOL. Snide, passive-aggressive, smiley-laden, long on verbiage but short on substance. You do not (or, I now suspect, cannot) tell people concisely and precisely HOW they are wrong in order to THEN help them see what is right. You are a hypocrite and you're not fooling us anymore. You're TOL's own Pee-Wee Herman; you've exposed yourself and now there's no going back.

 

[Danoh]

Hypocrite,

That right there is not only a lie, it is a perfect gem of bulverism. You are the undisputed master of it on TOL. Snide, passive-aggressive, smiley-laden, long on verbiage but short on substance. You do not (or, I now suspect, cannot) tell people concisely and precisely HOW they are wrong in order to THEN help them see what is right. You are a hypocrite and you're not fooling us anymore. You're TOL's own Pee-Wee Herman; you've exposed yourself and now there's no going back.

Nope. I've told you each before, and often do, but it goes right over your heads each time.

You yourself posed a question to your pals about what business Paul would have had even dealing with the Romans if your pals were right. You never received an answer.

While you yourself mostly skirt such things with them.

Here you are once more posting this nonsense AFTER I began a thread calling each of you to answer the errors listed on that link.

The very link the last time of which I posted it, you threw your hissy fit to, even as you avoided dealing with even one of the errors it asserts.

This is a personal issue for you; you child. For most of you - "Danoh hurt our feelings..." nonsense.

Even as you each deny that is your actual problem.

Grow up. These are doctrinal errors.

Deal with them from that.

Rom. 5: 6-8.