BRXII Battle talk

[Lon]

:thumb:

Well...there are many places where people aren't allowed to speak of these issues. TOL is a rare place. Many places would get rid of people like me for even talking about it. This is one of many reasons I value TOL, and the people that make it possible.

It'd be kewl to follow a thesis with discussion and questions about Sheol Gehennah, hades, and the lake of fire for understanding here. As your Battle Royale was more addressing the differences in perspective, it would also be great if we could discuss our understanding of these places, clarify some of the obscurity, and give some perspective. As you and Kevin both have dug into this issue, I'd appreciate a thread where you two just talked over your understandings and allowed for questions. There has been some of this here, I'm not sure what I'm thinking, but I believe there have been changes in the holding structure of hades since Christ's resurrection, etc. I often hear, that the Hebrews had no concept other than the grave, and I don't believe this is a correct view. I think there is room for further discussion and clarification.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Lets try that again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineveh

Oops, you have exposed yourself dave. That's Love God with your whole being and the second one is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. That's where you usually stumble though. You try to define love by dave's standard.

Loving God is expressed through loving others.

Golly... Who's this guy then? "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Now who's the one seeking inconsistancies? Care to explain your interpretation,
or are you part of the "Beatitudes don't apply to me" crowd?

I'll say it again, for your benefit. Christ's hardness is against sin, absolutely. And those
who live in sin experience Christ as a harsh ruler, but all for the purpose of bringing
healing and reconcilliation to the world, as He promised. Consistant Nin, God is Love.

Maybe you have a different Jesus, dave. One that is concerned with birds in heaven rather than men's eternal souls.

I pray for you Nin, you're really sad.

god is dave. That's the only thing that makes your god consistent with your beliefs.

[/QUOTE]

I'll have to go with Paul on this one. Its not my baptism, nor was it Paul's nor was it
Apollos, it is Christ's. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God is One, all Loving and all
Merciful.

 

[Nineveh]

Lets try that again:

Loving God is expressed through loving others.

Second.

First we are to Love God with our whole being.

How do we know? Jesus tells us.

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

All the Law hang on those, dave. The Law. The Law you deny every time you promote cemeonies for homosexuals. You forgot that Loving God comes first. You try to love your neighbor as yourself by defining non judgemental love you can live with. Loving God leads us from sin, loving dave's neighbor as himself keeps him in sin.

Now who's the one seeking inconsistancies? Care to explain your interpretation,
or are you part of the "Beatitudes don't apply to me" crowd?

Please explain "the Beatitudes" in context

I'll say it again, for your benefit. Christ's hardness is against sin, absolutely.

"Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Jesus is Going to rule what dave? Sin? or Men?

And those who live in sin experience Christ as a harsh ruler, but all for the purpose of bringing healing and reconcilliation to the world, as He promised. Consistant Nin, God is Love.

Those who live in sin don't know Christ. Hello, dave? You can not give to God's enemies what God Himself does not promise, namely His Spirit. They live under the Law that will condemn them and you are on this thread arguing for their false comfort.

I pray for you Nin, you're really sad.

Thanks, but I don't need prayers to the bird god dave. I need the Savior who cleansed my soul.

I'll have to go with Paul on this one. Its not my baptism, nor was it Paul's nor was it Apollos, it is Christ's. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God is One, all Loving and all
Merciful.

...to those who believe.

 

[PKevman]

Thanks, but I don't need prayers to the bird god dave. I need the Savior who cleansed my soul.

If there was a "Quote of the Day" that should be it! Well said, Nin! :up:

 

[Balder]

Thanks, but I don't need prayers to the bird god dave. I need the Savior who cleansed my soul.

Maybe he missed a few spots.

 

[Nineveh]

Maybe he missed a few spots.

I can see where your idea of cleanliness may lead you to such a belief. Christ is more powerful than a mere mortal however

 

[Balder]

I'm sure he's far more powerful than you and I put together.

Maybe he's just not done with you yet...

 

[Nineveh]

I'm sure he's far more powerful than you and I put together.

Maybe he's just not done with you yet...

After you repent and accept Christ, we can continue this dialog of your perceived faults with me At that time, the gulf that exists between us now won't be skewing your vision. As for now though, did you have something to add to the topic of this thread?

 

[Balder]

After you repent and accept Christ, we can continue this dialog of your perceived faults with me At that time, the gulf that exists between us now won't be skewing your vision. As for now though, did you have something to add to the topic of this thread?

I have been adding my perspective all along: eternal torment of conscious beings is sadistic and unbecoming of a god of infinite love, mercy, and justice.

 

[Ecumenicist]

After you repent and accept Christ, we can continue this dialog of your perceived faults with me At that time, the gulf that exists between us now won't be skewing your vision. As for now though, did you have something to add to the topic of this thread?

I am a longstanding repentant Christian and the gulf exists between us as well.

A more accurate statement would have been "agree with my personal interpretation
of what it means to be a Christian, and then maybe we can dialog."

 

[Nineveh]

I am a longstanding repentant Christian

When did you do that dave? When you accepted the bird god or the last time you broke your laws of the fruits of the Spirit?

A more accurate statement would have been "agree with my personal interpretation
of what it means to be a Christian, and then maybe we can dialog."

Pagans like balder have a problem with the Rock of Offense. It's folks like you, dave, who offers false hope and comfort, that's why they agree with you. Who needs the harsh reality of the Law when they can get their ears tickled by someone like you?

 

[Balder]

You are way off, Nineveh. You think pagans like me are put off by the "truth" that human beings are imperfect sinners. That's not true. We're put off by hateful Christians and sadistic doctrines of eternal torture.

 

[Nineveh]

You are way off, Nineveh. You think pagans like me are put off by the "truth" that human beings are imperfect sinners. That's not true. We're put off by hateful Christians and sadistic doctrines of eternal torture.

You put off only Christ can save you.

 

[Ecumenicist]

When did you do that dave? When you accepted the bird god or the last time you broke your laws of the fruits of the Spirit?



Pagans like balder have a problem with the Rock of Offense. It's folks like you, dave, who offers false hope and comfort, that's why they agree with you. Who needs the harsh reality of the Law when they can get their ears tickled by someone like you?

Jesus Christ as the Rock of Offense. Sounds more like an all star wrestler.
That's interesting, but its not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Light.
No one comes to the Father except through Him. God did not send the Son to condemn
the world, but that the world may be saved through Him.

The Law is a promise of peace and justice. Scripture says Jesus came to fulfill the law,
not to enforce it.

Obediance to the law is a Pharisaic Doctrine, not Christian.

Jesus Himself used 2 different words to describe the "law" of the OT and the
"Commandments" which he provided.

Law is greek nomos, which means a regulation, or a principle.

The word used for “commandment” is the Greek “entolay,” which is also translated as prescription. Prescriptions Nin, not Penalty. Prescriptions are given to provide healing,
Nin, not punishment.

Jesus fulfilled the "regulations" by providing "prescriptions," which included loving God,
Loving neighbors, and loving enemies.

Jesus said that He demands Mercy,and not Sacrifice. Mercy and Love Nin, not Offense
and Enforcement.

Jesus warned the Pharisees about their hypocrisy in trying to control peoples lives by
threatening people and holding the gates of the Kingdom hostage through their
interpretation of the law. Sound familiar Nin? Sounds alot like ET theology. Woe
to the Pharisees and Scribes, Nin, for they place stumbling blocks before the
Children of God. Children who run in horror away from God because of the threats of
Pharisaic doctrines like ET.

I known literally dozens of people who have done just that, not just Balder. I still help
minister at a bar based Biker church, as well at a rescue mission, where people
who rejected society and God and Jesus Christ because of those very doctrines you
adhere to are now finding the comfort and peace and healing of the Holy Spirit.

These are people who were living hell here and now Nin, which I know you understand, and
are instead living the Promise here and now, experiencing the Kingdom here and now,
experiencing healing here and now.

God's going to take care of the hereafter, I have faith in that, and I have faith He will do
so in a way that carries peace, justlice, Love, and Restoration for all, just as Scripture
promises. That's the hereafter, but there are people suffering here and now Nin, people
who know plenty about "law enforcement," but need love and understanding, some
comfort, some peace, some mercy, some Grace, some Good News Nin, not threats.

Yes, God told me that Heaven is a wonderful place, with flowers and birds and trees.
He also told me that my mission, our mission, here on earth is to help alleviate
suffering, by sharing the Good News Nin, not threats of Eternal Torment.

Jesus and John the Baptist both said the "repent, for the Kingdom is at Hand." They
categorically did NOT say "Repent, for if you don't, you will suffer Eternal Torment."

Now, if we were to replace the word "Eternal" with "here and now," we would be in complete
agreement. Accept Christ Here and now, and find Peace and Love and Healing here and
now. No arguments whatsoever.

God's going to take care of Eternity. PK, Nin, Aimiel, whoever adheres to this doctrine,
that's fine, but out "in the world," keep it to yourselves. Focus on the here and now,
on the needs of the people here and now, on the suffering and torment that happens
here and now. IF we do that, and if we recognize that the doctrine of ET only serves to
drive people from Christ, then whether we believe it our selves or not, we will not share it,
because our interest, our mission, the commandment that Christ gives us, is to call
people to Christ, not to drive people from Christ.

Dave Miller

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus Christ as the Rock of Offense. Sounds more like an all star wrestler. That's interesting, but its not Jesus Christ.

Actually, yes, It is. He is The Stone which was rejected by the builders. He is The Rock of Offense. Jerusalem being called a 'stumblingstone' is to symbolize Jesus. He came to set a man against his neighbor. He came to bring a sword, not peace. He came to divide between good and evil, not unite them, as your imaginary 'hippie Jesus' does.

God's going to take care of Eternity. PK, Nin, Aimiel, whoever adheres to this doctrine, that's fine, but out "in the world," keep it to yourselves.

Stick it in your hat if you don't like it. The truth is, you're the one that needs to keep your false god to yourself. You don't serve The Lord any more than a JoHo, SDA or Muslim. You all serve Satan, not The Lord.

Focus on the here and now, on the needs of the people here and now, on the suffering and torment that happens here and now.

Life is but a vapor that appears for an instant and then is gone. All the suffering that has ever taken place in this world is not nearly as important as one single soul falling into hell that might have been warned against it if you were to share The Gospel with them, instead of the drivel and dregs that you dish out.

IF we do that, and if we recognize that the doctrine of ET only serves to drive people from Christ, then whether we believe it our selves or not, we will not share it, because our interest, our mission, the commandment that Christ gives us, is to call people to Christ, not to drive people from Christ.

How can you call someone to One Whom you've never met? I mean seriously, you don't know The Lord yourself. How do you expect to introduce someone to Him? Pretend I'm an un-believer and I come to you, saying, "I'm lost and without Christ, what do I do?" What would you say to me?

 

[Nineveh]

Jesus Christ as the Rock of Offense. Sounds more like an all star wrestler. ...

You joined in mocking Paul with pagans, I'm not surprised you blatantly mock Christ Himself.

As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

As for the rest of your sermon, I'll pass. You don't seem capable to reply to any of the last few posts I addressed to you anyway.

 

[Aimiel]

As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Dave, obviously, hasn't believed on This Rock, and so doesn't see the analogy as applying to his god.

 

[Ecumenicist]

You joined in mocking Paul with pagans, I'm not surprised you blatantly mock Christ Himself.

As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

As for the rest of your sermon, I'll pass. You don't seem capable to reply to any of the last few posts I addressed to you anyway.

If you'd reference your quotes you would know that was not said by "Christ Himself," but
by Peter, who was in turn quoting Isaiah.

And the Isaiah quote is that He (God) is a stone to stumble over, and a rock to fall
over. The NIV quotes Isaiah accurately, King James uses the word "offense."

Jesus was and is a stumbling block and a rock to fall over to the Pharisees who try to
control others through legalistic doctrines based on the law, like ET.

1Peter2:8 "A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

Even though they stumble in disobedience, they were destined for the message, which is
eternal life through Christ.

This quote you give supports Universalism, how ironic.

 

[Nineveh]

If you'd reference your quotes you would know that was not said by "Christ Himself," but
by Peter, who was in turn quoting Isaiah.

And the Isaiah quote is that He (God) is a stone to stumble over, and a rock to fall
over. The NIV quotes Isaiah accurately, King James uses the word "offense."

Jesus was and is a stumbling block and a rock to fall over to the Pharisees who try to
control others through legalistic doctrines based on the law, like ET.

1Peter2:8 "A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

Even though they stumble in disobedience, they were destined for the message, which is
eternal life through Christ.

This quote you give supports Universalism, how ironic.

Dave, Jesus is called the Rock of Offense. Even though only Isaiah, a mere prophet of God, was being quoted by Peter, a mere apostle of Christ. The Truth is offensive dave. Instead of trying to cover your backside after it was exposed for mocking God, why not take this opportunity to really repent to the Creator.

 

[red77]

Oh, but you and dave do make your own definitions. You want to rely on Cor to define Love but forget the Law hangs on Loving God with your whole being first.

No we dont, there's no need Nineveh, i dont 'want' to rely on Cor to define love, its abundantly clear without any work on my part

Warped theology has everything to do with this ongoing debate.

This is true, there's nothing much more warped than eternal conscious torment

Since you are simply going to ignore me, I'll return the fave.

If by ignoring you you mean the four pages of 'remnant' that you'd posted then ok - I'll address it, not one of the passages negates God ultimately reconciling his entire own world that I read.....i didnt see any passages saying something about only a remnant of the world would be salvaged - although this is what your doctrine teaches, most of the passages were from the OT and had nothing to do with this topic in question.....