BRXII Battle talk

[Poly]

Logos_X and PastorKevin have both made their opening statements for BattleRoyale XII.

Discussion over this battle can be done in this thread.

 

[eisenreich]

I've already printed this out to read later, but from skimming it, I think it should be a very interesting debate. I believe both men are fully up to the challenge to discuss this subject. Although neither will change the others' mind, hopefully it will spark some lively conversation in the peanut gallery..

I wish luck to anyone willing to step into a BR-

:cheers:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

At first glance.... both combatants used excellent formatting on their first round posts! Logos post looks a bit long but he has such awesome formatting I am sure it will be easy to read. I will read both posts later and give you my impressions then.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Excellent first round.....

My thoughts.....

Logos... way too many quotes (in my opinion). Also logos seemed to pretty much waste most all of his questions asking Pastorkevin questions that logos should already know the answer to i.e., "LogosQ2: Do you believe God really created the universe so that unending misery would be the outcome for the majority of people He raises from the dead?" :doh:

And how to answer a question like.... "LogosQ3: How much confusion has been generated because of translating four different words "Hell"?"

How could anyone answer that? And how relevant is the answer anyway? Truth is truth no matter who is confused.

Logos... I love the post formatting, I give you an "A" for formatting, but I have to give you a "C-" for meaty content. Therefore I give you a "B-" in round one.


Pastorkevin starts strong.....

What is the Lake of Fire?

Matthew 10:41,46

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Can the battle end there??? Is there really any reason to go on? Seriously? :idunno: Leave it to Jesus to remove all the ambiguity eh?

Pastorkevin holds logos feet to the fire (pun intended) with the following question....

PastorKevin Question #4: Are the beast, the false prophet, and Satan tormented day and night forever and ever? If not please, cite the Scriptural reference that shows that they get out.

There will simply be no way that Logos can give any type of compelling rebuttal to that question.

Similarly....

4. Anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life:

Revelation 20:11-15:


11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

PastorKevin Question #5: Do those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life get out of the Lake of Fire? If so, please cite the Scripture reference that clearly shows this to be true.

Pastorkevins questions are formulated brilliantly.

Pastorkevin I give you a "B" for post formatting and an "A+" for content (especially the questions) therefore you get a "A" in round #1.

Pastorkevin, I really appreciate your "to the point" style. No obfuscation or unnecessary quotes from authors that may not know anything more on the topic than the rest of us!

Great works brothers! Can't wait for round two!

 

[neilinprayer]

Moderator partiality

Moderator partiality

Knight, as chairman of the debate you should remain neutral. Your initial comments are patently partisan. One appreciates that you will most likely hold to the current orthodoxy, that's fine but you should never take sides so blatantly. Please temper your zeal with respect and humility.

Whether you agree with him or not, Logos_x has laid the foundations of a compelling argument. Pastorkevin has some challenging questions to answer. The debate is far from over.

BTW, FTR, I believe in eternal punishment too and I admit that I am unlikely to be persuaded otherwise. But then I am not the moderator of this debate.

NIP

 

[Servo]

Great job done by both combatants. Easy to follow along and the formatting on both posts looks great!

But I especially appreciate PK's use of scripture.
I have to say that I pretty much had the same thought as Knight after reading PK's first use of scripture, Matthew 10. My first thought was...battle over, obfuscation begins.

 

[logos_x]

Excellent first round.....

My thoughts.....

Logos... way too many quotes (in my opinion). Also logos seemed to pretty much waste most all of his questions asking Pastorkevin questions that logos should already know the answer to i.e., "LogosQ2: Do you believe God really created the universe so that unending misery would be the outcome for the majority of people He raises from the dead?" :doh:

I do know the answer. The question is...does Kevin?

And how to answer a question like.... "LogosQ3: How much confusion has been generated because of translating four different words "Hell"?"

How could anyone answer that? And how relevant is the answer anyway? Truth is truth no matter who is confused.

Precicely the point!

Logos... I love the post formatting, I give you an "A" for formatting, but I have to give you a "C-" for meaty content. Therefore I give you a "B-" in round one.

I too realize that the length is excessive...you should see my first draft. But my view is the one that most people are unfamiliar with, and therefore required the most explanation.
As we get responsive to each other's questions, it's important people have a general gestalt on my position.

Not an excuse...just an explanation.

A "B-" ain't bad. But as far as "meaty content"...you just don't like the meat. There's plenty there if you aren't afraid to look. :chuckle:

And...you anticipate defeat already? We're just gettin' started!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight, as chairman of the debate you should remain neutral. Your initial comments are patently partisan. One appreciates that you will most likely hold to the current orthodoxy, that's fine but you should never take sides so blatantly. Please temper your zeal with respect and humility.

Poly is the "chairman" of this debate - try to pay closer attention.

neilinprayer neg repped m for that as well! :shocked:

Dude.... I was thinking of returning the favor but I am not that vengeful.

 

[Lighthouse]

I'm coming off of a cold, otherwise I would read the battle thread in its entirety [mostly]. As it is, my congestion is too distracting to read that much. However, I agree with Knight about Steve's quotes. Way too many. Even without a cold I would not read all of those.

 

[Jimmy West]

Hell - A Revelation of Mercy

Hell - A Revelation of Mercy

As I have come to know God on a personal level, I have learned a great deal about his Kingdom. One of the things that happens when you become one-in-spirit with him is you begin to become like him, sharing his character. I find that I have become more merciful towards my fellow man.

I have an accurate conception of the nature of Hell. God has told me that the concept that I believe is real, that my understanding of Hell is true. One day I started thinking of what someone must go through, how they must suffer in the fiery pits of Hell. Then to add on to that that the suffering is eternal, will never stop or end, began to weigh on my soul.
I believe that most of the souls in hell were not truly wicked, but, instead, dumb or stupid.
They just made wrong decisions that led them to where they are now.

So, one day I decided to talk to God about Hell. I said: “Lord, to send someone to Hell to suffer severe pain forever, seems like too much to me.” I got the impression that he kind of shrugged his shoulders. I said: “Lord, do you understand the concept of physical pain? Have you ever experienced it?” He said: “No” I said maybe you should experience it so that you can fully understand what it is like, what a person goes through” He said: “No thanks” I told him that I thought that the punishment of eternal pain in Hell is too severe, even for the wicked.

I asked him when he had created Hell. He told me that he had created it shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus. He created it in anger because of how his son was made to suffer. It immediately hit me – I said: “Lord, as parents, we are told never to punish our children when we are angry, and that is exactly what you did” He agreed with me.

He thought about it briefly and then decided that he regretted ever creating Hell. He has decided to close it down. He has been taking lost souls out of Hell since September of 2005 and counting their punishment as complete, their price as paid. All but the truly wicked will eventually end up in Heaven. The spirits of the truly wicked will likely remain on the Earth for eternity.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A "B-" ain't bad. But as far as "meaty content"...you just don't like the meat. There's plenty there if you aren't afraid to look. :chuckle:

Good job logos :up:

I enjoyed your first round post, I did!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

As I have come to know God on a personal level, I have learned a great deal about his Kingdom. One of the things that happens when you become one-in-spirit with him is you begin to become like him, sharing his character. I find that I have become more merciful towards my fellow man.

I have an accurate conception of the nature of Hell. God has told me that the concept that I believe is real, that my understanding of Hell is true. One day I started thinking of what someone must go through, how they must suffer in the fiery pits of Hell. Then to add on to that that the suffering is eternal, will never stop or end, began to weigh on my soul.
I believe that most of the souls in hell were not truly wicked, but, instead, dumb or stupid.
They just made wrong decisions that led them to where they are now.

So, one day I decided to talk to God about Hell. I said: “Lord, to send someone to Hell to suffer severe pain forever, seems like too much to me.” I got the impression that he kind of shrugged his shoulders. I said: “Lord, do you understand the concept of physical pain? Have you ever experienced it?” He said: “No” I said maybe you should experience it so that you can fully understand what it is like, what a person goes through” He said: “No thanks” I told him that I thought that the punishment of eternal pain in Hell is too severe, even for the wicked.

I asked him when he had created Hell. He told me that he had created it shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus. He created it in anger because of how his son was made to suffer. It immediately hit me – I said: “Lord, as parents, we are told never to punish our children when we are angry, and that is exactly what you did” He agreed with me.

He thought about it briefly and then decided that he regretted ever creating Hell. He has decided to close it down. He has been taking lost souls out of Hell since September of 2005 and counting their punishment as complete, their price as paid. All but the truly wicked will eventually end up in Heaven. The spirits of the truly wicked will likely remain on the Earth for eternity.

Please, folks....lets keep this thread focused on comments regarding BR XII itself.

If you want to discuss the topic from your own perspective... start a new thread.

 

[Servo]

As I have come to know God on a personal level, I have learned a great deal about his Kingdom. One of the things that happens when you become one-in-spirit with him is you begin to become like him, sharing his character. I find that I have become more merciful towards my fellow man.

I have an accurate conception of the nature of Hell. God has told me that the concept that I believe is real, that my understanding of Hell is true. One day I started thinking of what someone must go through, how they must suffer in the fiery pits of Hell. Then to add on to that that the suffering is eternal, will never stop or end, began to weigh on my soul.
I believe that most of the souls in hell were not truly wicked, but, instead, dumb or stupid.
They just made wrong decisions that led them to where they are now.

So, one day I decided to talk to God about Hell. I said: “Lord, to send someone to Hell to suffer severe pain forever, seems like too much to me.” I got the impression that he kind of shrugged his shoulders. I said: “Lord, do you understand the concept of physical pain? Have you ever experienced it?” He said: “No” I said maybe you should experience it so that you can fully understand what it is like, what a person goes through” He said: “No thanks” I told him that I thought that the punishment of eternal pain in Hell is too severe, even for the wicked.

I asked him when he had created Hell. He told me that he had created it shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus. He created it in anger because of how his son was made to suffer. It immediately hit me – I said: “Lord, as parents, we are told never to punish our children when we are angry, and that is exactly what you did” He agreed with me.

He thought about it briefly and then decided that he regretted ever creating Hell. He has decided to close it down. He has been taking lost souls out of Hell since September of 2005 and counting their punishment as complete, their price as paid. All but the truly wicked will eventually end up in Heaven. The spirits of the truly wicked will likely remain on the Earth for eternity.

:kookoo:

 

[logos_x]

I'm coming off of a cold, otherwise I would read the battle thread in its entirety [mostly]. As it is, my congestion is too distracting to read that much. However, I agree with Knight about Steve's quotes. Way too many. Even without a cold I would not read all of those.

Too many quotes?

There are as many as I require...no more...no less!

:rotfl:

 

[Just Tom]

And...ALL of the "proof texts" used to support "eternal" torment use the same four letter Greek word..."aion"...or it's adjectives "aionion, aionios" which CANNOT mean "eternal" or "everlasting" or "forever and ever" UNLESS they are associated with something that in fact lasts "forever and ever" IS "everlasting" or "eternal".

Their entire argument is CIRCULAR...applying a meaning to aion or aionion that is not there in the original Greek Language!

This is logos's down fall. We are eternal beings since God breathed His spirit into Adam and gave him life. God is eternal and so are we in the spiritual realm and we would have been in the physical realm if God hadn't kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden. Since he said that we must kick them out lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever. Then we would live forever in this fallen flesh.

So since these quotes are referring something that is eternal US they mean eternal END of debate. I win you lose... I have dismantled your entire thesis and found the flaw in your argument you should have honor and addmit defeat..

Now to Go and read PK's post..

 

[glassjester]

Hm... similar to this: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31938&page=1&pp=15

 

[artcomo]

Hell?

Hell?

This is all based on the assumption that there is a God and he is so vengeful as to create a hell for the mistakes He made. To me this is an exercise in the absurd!

 

[logos_x]

This is logos's down fall. We are eternal beings since God breathed His spirit into Adam and gave him life. God is eternal and so are we in the spiritual realm and we would have been in the physical realm if God hadn't kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden. Since he said that we must kick them out lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever. Then we would live forever in this fallen flesh.

So since these quotes are referring something that is eternal US they mean eternal END of debate. I win you lose... I have dismantled your entire thesis and found the flaw in your argument you should have honor and addmit defeat..

Now to Go and read PK's post..

So...God removes the possibility to get to the tree of life until we come to Him...only to grant it anyway in the end in the resurrection whether we have or not?

Allllll rightyyyyy thennnnnnn.... :kookoo:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This is all based on the assumption that there is a God and he is so vengeful as to create a hell for the mistakes He made. To me this is an exercise in the absurd!

Well then, you may as well stay out of the discussion. :up:

 

[Just Tom]

So...God removes the possibility to get to the tree of life until we come to Him...only to grant it anyway in the end in the resurrection whether we have or not?

Allllll rightyyyyy thennnnnnn.... :kookoo:

God removed the possibility to live forever in the fallen state that Adam was in by kicking him out of the Garden.

Will we or won't we live forever?

The answer is yes. God is eternal and God breathed His spirit into Adam. When we procreate we create eternal lives/souls/spirits which is what God wanted us to do from the beginning. Then Adam sinned so God had to send Jesus to make a way for all those who would choose to believe and want a relationship with God forever to have it, that relationship otherwise all would have to be separated from God forever because of our sin.

Your belief is that God will torment men for a while which will make them better so that they will then have suffered enough to come to heaven. Sounds like the inquisition!