BRXII Battle talk
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PKevman
New member
logos_x said:ANY objection, on ANY grounds Aimiel?
Here is what I believe the following Bible passages teach...
Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world
Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all
1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved.
1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time
Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world
Col 1:16 In Him all were created
Rm 5:15-21 through Adam all condemned, through Christ all live
1Cor 15:22 Through Adam all die, through Christ all live
Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord; 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all things
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
Heb 8:11,12 All will know God
Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty of the sons of God
Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God
1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God
Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen
Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all all
Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God
1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all
Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new
Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live
Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth
1 Cor 3:15 saved, so as by fire
Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire
Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world
2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all
Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father
Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things
Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands
Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him
Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things
1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all
Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed
Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth
Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return
Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations
Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts
Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever
Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him
Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things
Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored
Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him
Ps 145:9 He is good to all
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him
Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people
Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless the Father draws them
Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things
But I guess I'm wrong. I'm just an emotional madman, trying to get people to see these scriptures mean what I think they mean.
Please explain how it is that God, by inspiring the writers of the Bible to use the words they used, and by inspiring them to use words like "aion" and it's adjectives, has somehow contradicted everything said in the above verses of scripture?
I don't think He contradicted these scriptures at all...certainly using the words He inspired them to use.
But...I guess any objection, on any grounds, to eternal conscious torment is foolishness...and a mere emotional excursion into some kind of fantasyland...isn't it?
We have already addressed the majority of these Scriptures at some point in our 6 months of debating this subject. Again, context always determines meaning. And when you look at all of those verses in context none of them teaches Universalism. Not a one.
And you don't use Bible verses to TRUMP other Bible verses. You use the Bible to interpret the Bible and it does it well enough on its own.
I understand why you would show all of these verses to attempt to prove Universalism. It is a common ploy by false teachers, to pull a whole list of verses and claim they teach something in order to completely bewilder the person they are debating. I bet someone showed you a similar list when they were trying to win you over to Universalism. JW's and others are FAMOUS for doing this. We can show just about anything we want by selecting words or phrases from the Bible and pulling them out of context and putting them together in a list. I have illustrated this before how you can take a whole page of statements in the Bible and show that there is no God. Does the Bible actually teach that? NO!
Context, context, context.............
Aimiel
Well-known member
I've always found that funerals, and especially ones where the person who is deceased was in a lost condition, are the times when I find the most comfort and reassurance in The Presence of The Lord in my life. It isn't that I search for scriptures, which at those times is more or less like looking for a lifeboat after the ship has already sunk, but I take comfort in the manifest Presence of The Lord. He is more valuable than anything which might be compared. His Loving-Kindness is better than life. Funerals for the departed who lived their lives for The Lord are more comforting, granted, because you don't even think for one moment of any doubt as to their salvation, but humans often assume more discretion than belongs to them in regard to these matters, since only The Lord knows for sure someone's ultimate destination.
Kimberlyann
New member
Nineveh said:
Take it or leave it. But even a child knows in it's heart it's wrong to torture something.
Torture is wrong, it's cruel and evil. I know that in my heart.
PKevman
New member
Kimberlyann said:
That the child is with Jesus. If a person is unable to understand the gospel (i.e. children and mentally retarted people), then they obviously never had the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ. I find that these folks are often the most sincere about their faith as well. I have had several friends who I went to church with who were mentally retarted and they lit up the place with their smiles and their genuine love for others.
I have also done a funeral before where there was a good chance the person was not saved, and it isn't easy. I wouldn't lie to someone and give them false hope, however. That would be FAR more damaging than lovingly encouraging those family members that God loves THEM and wants to save THEM. I focus on the living in the case where I know the person may not have been saved. But ultimately I take solace from the fact that I don't know their heart. I answer grief by offering a relationship with the Person who can take that grief and bear it for them: the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words the best comfort you can give is to preach the gospel and lead them to Christ.
Death is a part of life. It is a result of sin, and as such we all die. The human race has a record of 100% death. We all die at some point. Some sooner than others, but we all die. We can't avoid it and we cannot cheat it. What we can do is assure our place in God's glorious Heaven by trusting in the way in which He has stated one gets there.
Ecumenicist
New member
Nineveh said:
And how do we know whether we are being led by the True Spirit, or a false spirit?
By the fruit it bears.
ET is not peaceful, patient, kind, loving, generous, gentle, self controlled.
Its bad fruit, its a bad spirit that inspires it, its not of the Holy Spirit.
Kimberlyann
New member
PastorKevin said:
I was hoping you would address those Scriptures I posted. Please tell me how you interpret them.
PastorKevin said:
Yes, but all sides do the same thing, those who believe in eternal hell are just as guilty of using certain passages on their own and interpret them to mean what they believe too, I think it comes down to whether God intended from the conception of the world to be satisfied with losing most of it. I dont believe that to be the case. It seems that there's little point in discussing this matter to any great degree because minds already seem set in their ways regardless of what could be offered as argument. It just seems so sad to me that a message of hope and good news has been warped into one of pain and torment where hope in so many cases is completely lost. If there's no words of comfort to offer those who have suffered tragic loss and bereavement then there is something deeply deeply wrong in that message.
Aimiel
Well-known member
But even as a child, didn't you know that you were not God. What makes you think, now that you're grown, that you're so much better than Him, so that you can pass judgement upon Him? Does He need your approval to do His Will? Will you reject Him, if you come to find out that He meant what He said about the Lake of Fire containing eternal torment?Kimberlyann said:
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Solaris said:
Do you suppose most men follow that Law or follow the imaginations of their own hearts?
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Dave Miller said:
John tells us to test the spirits to see if they are from God. How? By comparing what the spirit says to the Word. The fruits, once again dave, are not a spiritual test, they are the natural out pouring of the Spirit in one's life.
It never ceases to amaze me how you turn even the fruits of the Spirit into legalism.
Why should the lake of fire be any of those things? It was prepared for the devil and his followers. God doesn't promise peace to His enemies.
Wow... dave, not only do you put yourself in position to blame God and then "forgive" Him, think He sins, and ignore His Law for your own, now His putting people who do not want to be with Him "outside" is "bad fruit" as well. Do you know what happened to the last entity that thought to overthrow God?
Nineveh said:
Well, is it the moral law that tells us that to kill or cause pain is wrong? That to live selflishly at the expense of others is wrong? There are certain things that I think are ingrained in our hearts that is our moral law and when we go against it we know it to be so, often to our own detriment when we ignore it.
We know that to murder is wrong, we know that to torture another is wrong, we know that to help those less fortunate than ourselves is right, we know that to show compassion to those in need is right, is this not the moral law at work in our hearts?
Nineveh said:
Doesnt our conscience dictate that to torture a creature or another human being is wrong? I checked the post and saw nothing out of context with the answer, our conscience plays a part in these matters, is this not just another term for the inward moral law on our hearts?
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Solaris said:
The Moral Law tells us not to murder. In cases such as self defense or when the government executes a murderer, we should know that is just. As for "pain", there are many painful things in this life we must do, we may not like them, but that does not mean they are evil.
I would say many people live just that way. Some of them try to pass themselves off as being "nice" while they do it as well. Take dave miller as a handy example. Dave seems very nice on the surface, but underneath he teaches that God's Law really doesn't mean what it says. For instance, dave is a reallly nice guy to homosexuals because he tells them if they pass through his "homosexual commitment ceremony" their perversions will not be seen by God as an abomination any longer.
It's interesting you say "our moral law". It's when we sin against God's Law our conscience tells us so. But we have come up with many handy means to quell our troublesome consciences.
We run into things like, what does it really mean to "help those less fortunate"? Some might say by taking from those who have more and giving to those who have less, while others would say if you don't work you don't eat. This goes back to being selfish, really. While it may "feel good" to take from one to give to another, it winds up harming those intended to be helped. We should always be willing to accept what God has to say even if it may seem "cruel" or "mean" on the surface. God, as the Creator knows best for us, and as His followers we should be willing to accept that He does.
I think you misunderstand the lake of fire. When a man rejects Christ he is rejecting his salvation for his sins. There is no other way to be cleansed of those sins. When he is called to judgement, he will be judged by the Law on his own merit. He will then be found guilty and sent away from God's presence. God does not promise anything to those who do not want to be with Him except not being with Him. The person sent to the lake will take what he has with him into his eternity, that is, his sin and guilty conscience. That is the torment he will have. It isn't inflicted by God, it's inflicted by himself.
And for a clearer understanding of Romans 2:15, you really should start at Romans 1 and read through instead of just reading it out of context in a post.
Nineveh said:
I should have clarified 'causing pain', What i meant was that to cause senseless pain on another being is wrong, that could be either physical or emotional pain. The same with killing, at times it can unfortunately be a necessity as in the case of self defence,
It is not up to me to pass judgement on Dave Miller, I think I'll leave it to Dave himself to respond to your comments here if he chooses to
They're only handy means on the surface, God's law is pure so when we transgress it we know. We can certainly make excuses for our actions but to effectively quell the conscience into silence is a very difficult if not impossible thing to achieve, it has a great habit of gnawing away at us!
I think you make this more complicated than what it is if you dont mind my saying so, its individual acts of kindness that I was referring to which dont involve taking from another. Giving someone a meal who hasnt eaten hardly involves any of what you describe. Look at the Good samaritan, what does that teach us about how we should treat each other? simple acts of kindness can mean so much and go a long way into the bargain
Well if I misunderstand the lake of fire then I'm assuredly not the only one! Its pure allegory to my mind, I have to presume that you do not believe it to be literal yourself? A guilty conscience would hardly gnaw away at someone who was on fire so to speak!
Oh I have read Romans 1 all the way through, and I see nothing out of context with my reply to you, our conscience or moral law is integral to who we are!
Thanks for your reply
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Solaris said:
Here again we can often find differences of opinion on this. For instance, if a girl is acting like a slut, it might cause emotional pain to tell her so. She might see it as "senseless", others might see it as "senseless", yet the intention is to persuade her not to act in such a fashion because it leads to real pain. You will see much of this exact thing happening at TOL.
We agree. And I seriously doubt many take delight in it, but sometimes what we may deem distasteful must be done.
I am not bearing a false witness, if that is what you are implying. But you are rather new to TOL, I am sure time and his posts will provide many opportunities for you to compare what he preaches with Scriptures.
Since using dave as an example seems to lose the focus, let's use a different example.
You said: "[is it the moral law that tells us] That to live selflishly at the expense of others is wrong?"
My Reply: I would say many people live just that way. Some of them try to pass themselves off as being "nice" while they do it as well.
Our conscience bears witness when we sin, it keeps the record of our wrongs. I wanted to point out that the majority are quite capable of being selfish regardless of the Law on our hearts. And often times it is done in the guise of "loving our neighbor". What's missing is the Law is summed up as Loving God with your whole being. (Matt 22:37) then as "loving your neighbor as yourself". (Matt 22:39). When we follow our own heart instead of following the Spirit we wind up being selfish, not following the Law that God wrote there. Let me ask...
Which is kind? Telling a young girl she is a slut and going to hell, but in Christ there is hope -or- Telling a young girl who exercises her freedom to expresses herself sexually she is saved because she can recite the right doctrines? Which of those two is the selfish choice?
I tend to disagree, and here is why: I believe people try to fill that "Christ" shaped hole in their hearts with many things. Among them sex, drugs (prescription and otherwise), some will call me silly about this, but loud noise such as music or television. Obsessive compulsions, anything that can distract the mind. I used some of these methods before I repented and turned to Christ. It was liberating to be set free from the never ending cycle of sinning to quiet my conscience from sinning
I merely plucked one of your examples to reply to. But if you notice many people support the ideas of welfare and taxation for the "needy". What does God say about feeding the needy? In the OT He instructs His people not to gleen the fields clear out to the edges so that the needy can gather their own food. In the NT, Paul tells us if we don't work, we shouldn't eat. Both of these ideas are almost abhorrent in today's society.
Yes, I believe it to be as literal as Christ did when He introduced the idea to us. Have you read the Battle Royale on this topic yet?
I tend to believe your mind is divided on this issue after you have stated, "We can certainly make excuses for our actions but to effectively quell the conscience into silence is a very difficult if not impossible thing to achieve, it has a great habit of gnawing away at us!" Consider there is no way to artificially distract one's mind in the lake IE: sex, drugs, etc. God's presence is not there. There is no hope, love, kindness, patience, salvation, etc to take away that gnawing pain of a guilty conscience. There won't even be an opportunity to find excuses, for at that point, one has already been judged guilty.
Oh I have read Romans 1 all the way through, and I see nothing out of context with my reply to you, our conscience or moral law is integral to who we are!
Thanks for your reply
"I checked the post and saw nothing out of context with the answer",
If you don't mind, would you please sum up what is being said in Romans 1 and 2?
I'll reply on Monday, have a pleasant weekend
Kimberlyann
New member
Aimiel said:
Are you serious? I don't think I'm better than Him, I believe God is good moral and just, Jesus said there is only One good and that is God.
My argument is, if we "carnal humans" know torture is wrong, then how in the world is a God that is supposed to be good and loving be be less moral than carnal humans?
Your right about one thing, God doesn't need my approval to fulfill his will, but He has it. I'm glad God is good and I'm glad that it's His will that all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That's what I call good news.
I'm tickled pink that He is fully able to bring about His own will.
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