BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

Either cleansed, or purged would have been a better word, perhaps, and that is Biblical, and requires no works on anyone's part.

No, it is contra-Biblical, and suffering to achieve salvation is works, whether you recognize it or not; but since you don't recognize the original lie, "You shall not surely die," in its new package, I'm sure you won't.

 

[Balder]

No, it is contra-Biblical, and suffering to achieve salvation is works, whether you recognize it or not; but since you don't recognize the original lie, "You shall not surely die," in its new package, I'm sure you won't.

Suffering to achieve salvation may be works. But how about undergoing a painful medical procedure in order to live? If God is the physician, applying a purificatory "treatment" to those who suffer in Hell, how is that "works"?

 

[logos_x]

No, it is contra-Biblical, and suffering to achieve salvation is works, whether you recognize it or not; but since you don't recognize the original lie, "You shall not surely die," in its new package, I'm sure you won't.

Explain how you think the lie "You shall not surely die" applies to universal salvation and not eternal torment. :think:

 

[Balder]

I notice Pastor Kevin didn't respond to my question to him.

I'm not surprised. When it is laid out so starkly, who in their right mind would give their assent to such an idea?

 

[Aimiel]

Suffering to achieve salvation may be works.

Why 'may' it be? It is, plain and simple.

But how about undergoing a painful medical procedure in order to live?

Apples and oranges. We suffer due to Adam's sin, as well as those of our ancestors and last (but certainly not least) our own.

If God is the physician, applying a purificatory "treatment" to those who suffer in Hell, how is that "works"?

God isn't performing any surgery in hell, He is suffering the torment of His creation, designed for life, but they chose pleasure rather than righteousness.

 

[Aimiel]

Explain how you think the lie "You shall not surely die" applies to universal salvation and not eternal torment.

Saying that those who are destined for the second death (eternal suffering in the Lake of Fire) will not remain in that torment forever (a fate far worse than death) will not suffer forever, but be released, is saying, "You shall not surely die the second death." Satan denied the first punishment (death) and you deny the second one (eternal torment). You're just like your father.

 

[logos_x]

Saying that those who are destined for the second death (eternal suffering in the Lake of Fire) will not remain in that torment forever (a fate far worse than death) will not suffer forever, but be released, is saying, "You shall not surely die the second death." Satan denied the first punishment (death) and you deny the second one (eternal torment). You're just like your father.

The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.

What does that mean to you?

 

[Redfin]

Anyway, if all you have to add to this thread is patting your buddies on the back and taking swings at your opponents instead of offering rebuttals or points, please just utilize the rep system.

In other words, follow your example... :chuckle:

 

[Balder]

It's just a love fest. I just gave one to Logos.

Now for the hard part...

 

[Lighthouse]

How is God 'all in all' if people are separated from him in aliteral or even symbolic lake of fire? How does this tie in with God bringing the whole universe into subjection to him? I dont see any hyperbole in this verse......... :think:

Well, if they're annihilated, then they aren't part of the all, are they?

 

[Nineveh]

I didn't say PEOPLE. I said all the works of the Devil are destroyed, including what holds people captive, sin, death and hell.

I asked in the post you basically ignored (post 1277), "So there are limits to that "all" right?" Obviously you don't mean the limit is "works of the devil" here because hell isn't a "work of the devil". What makes the holding place "hell" different than the "garbage dump" lake?

In your view, punishment is just for punishment's sake..and lasts forever. In mine it isn't. It isn't esoteric.

Ah, I could understand that. Thanks for rephrasing The "punishment" in the lake is self administered. In this place away from God's presence, there is no hope, love, salvation, redemption, joy, peace, etc. When folks love themsleves most, that's what they get to spend eternity with. Taking a hard look at it, yes, it's very unpleasent, Just as Jesus described. But this "punishment" isn't for "punishments sake", it's called justice. If we take a look around, we see justice is almost a disgusting concept these days in and of itself.

The few are not the only ones saved ultimately..the fewness of salvation is in reference to various ages...it has been addressed before several times.

Except from beginning to end we see few not many. We never see, "the way is narrow and many be that find it", never.

Then why insist it is eternal?

The lake is never spoken of in temporary tems. Neither is eternal life.

It doesn't "unsay" anything. It NEVER was discribed as "eternal" in the first place.

Well, yes it is, unless we want to worship young's.

There is NO lake of fire in the new creation. There will be no more curse, and no more sin. The Bible is quite plain regarding this...

The last we read of the lake is, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." There is nothing past that point that even gives an iota of idea that there will be yet one more resurrection or another salvation event, deliverance or even visitation. I think you take the word "all" a bit too far out of context on occasion.

but somehow it is all lost on believers in eternal torment, presumably because an eternal state that cannot be revoked forever and ever carries much more weight than the scriptures that refute it.

The only Sciptures I have ever witnessed that could be remotely construed to indicate anything about the lake being temporary is young's, and that's only because no one really knows what "age during" means. Eternal life is just as long as eternal second death.

 

[Nineveh]

PastorK,

After the BR and 87 pages over here, I can see why he'd like to move on. I don't think he's even been reply to this thread for the last few pages.

do you believe -- with Hank Hanegraaff, for one --

I'm not familliar with 'im.

that we are given imperishable bodies at the resurrection,

"We" as in those in the Body of Christ are promised imperishable bodies.

and that we will either go to heaven or the lake of fire in those bodies, to exist forever in conditions of either bliss or torment?

Since the Bible doesn't say those outside the Body are given new bodies, this could be another indication that the spirit that lives on is what is in the lake for eternity.

BTW, you will notice I've started deleting the spam from the thread. If "your buddy" redfin has something to add/argue, s/he is more than welcome, other than that there is no reason to have to wade through his/her or other's spam.

 

[red77]

Ah, I could understand that. Thanks for rephrasing The "punishment" in the lake is self administered. In this place away from God's presence, there is no hope, love, salvation, redemption, joy, peace, etc. When folks love themsleves most, that's what they get to spend eternity with. Taking a hard look at it, yes, it's very unpleasent, Just as Jesus described. But this "punishment" isn't for "punishments sake", it's called justice. If we take a look around, we see justice is almost a disgusting concept these days in and of itself.

Do you really think that everyone who isnt a christian "love" themselves and are consciously sticking two fingers up at God? is everybody living it up and having a whale of a time in this life who dont believe? Does it make it easier to imagine that all who dont believe are hedonists? I'd take a reality check if I were you and have a look around, you may wake up a bit, I've just had news recently that my oldest friend is having chemo and radio treatment for a malignant brain tumour, he's an agnostic and we've talked about this stuff a few times, he may not 'believe' but he has a big heart and I'd trust the guy with my own life, he's facing this hurdle with more courage than myself I dont mind admitting...another friend of mine lost his father over the new year and has hardly had a 'rich man' lifestyle either, at work I encounter letters from thousands of people who have hit hard times/beravement/sickness/depression and statistically I doubt that most would be believers........its so easy to say 'justice' when you're not one who will suffer, it truly is sickening in the extreme hearing this absolute compassionless judgemental crap

Except from beginning to end we see few not many. We never see, "the way is narrow and many be that find it", never.

.

And we never see hell or the lake of fire mentioned in this verse either do we? It has to be construed to interpret the passage that way as has been said time and time again....

The last we read of the lake is, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." There is nothing past that point that even gives an iota of idea that there will be yet one more resurrection or another salvation event, deliverance or even visitation. I think you take the word "all" a bit too far out of context on occasion.

the actual passage that declares that God will subject the entire universe to himself and be all in all would be enough to give a 'hint' that the LOF isnt some fiery residence separated from thepresence of God, the word 'all' may not always literally mean 'all' in every verse in the Bible but in this passage there aint no hyperbole that I can see.......



]

 

[red77]

Well, if they're annihilated, then they aren't part of the all, are they?

True - but I dont believe in annihilationism anyway, I thought that was your belief.......

 

[Lighthouse]

True - but I dont believe in annihilationism anyway, I thought that was your belief.......

So you don't think annihilationism is possible?

 

[logos_x]

If death is separation from God specifically....and it will be destroyed LAST...then it stands to reason that all separation from God is destroyed. If death means to be made inoperative, then death's destruction would mean that nothing is inoperative in relation to God in the end. If death is corruption, then there will be no corruption in the end.

Any way you look at it, the destruction of death so that God may be all in all is very good news...for everyone.

It means, quite simply, that all "hellishness" has been obliterated in the end.

What is so frustrating is that, because of the teaching of the doctrine of eternal torment, this has to be spelled out....and people can't be permitted to think about what this means in this way...because IF eternal torment is true...then death being destroyed cannot be true, or you have to think in ways that says that death isn't really destroyed completely at all.

So...there is no restitution of all things, all things are not found in Christ in the fullness of the ages, every knee does not bow and tongue confess in thanksgiving and praise...and on and on and on and on. People argue endlessly against such an outcome...and are forced into thinking of ways to do so.

And it is all because they think the aions associated with punishment are endless and never leads to anything in line with God's stated purpose in saving the world.

Well...what DOES the Bible really teach, after all?

 

[logos_x]

I asked in the post you basically ignored (post 1277), "So there are limits to that "all" right?" Obviously you don't mean the limit is "works of the devil" here because hell isn't a "work of the devil". What makes the holding place "hell" different than the "garbage dump" lake?

if there were no works of the Devil...would there be any Hell? :think:

Ah, I could understand that. Thanks for rephrasing The "punishment" in the lake is self administered. In this place away from God's presence, there is no hope, love, salvation, redemption, joy, peace, etc. When folks love themsleves most, that's what they get to spend eternity with. Taking a hard look at it, yes, it's very unpleasent, Just as Jesus described. But this "punishment" isn't for "punishments sake", it's called justice. If we take a look around, we see justice is almost a disgusting concept these days in and of itself.

What makes endless punishment "just" Nin? Because it is God that ends up doing it?

Except from beginning to end we see few not many. We never see, "the way is narrow and many be that find it", never.

Such is the outcome of the teaching that the aions associated with punishment are endless. You can't even see that there is to be a restitutuon (apokatastasis) of ALL things in the future at all.

The lake is never spoken of in temporary tems. Neither is eternal life.

It always is spoken of as ages...not endless misery.

Well, yes it is, unless we want to worship young's.

How long is an eon, Nin?

The last we read of the lake is, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." There is nothing past that point that even gives an iota of idea that there will be yet one more resurrection or another salvation event, deliverance or even visitation. I think you take the word "all" a bit too far out of context on occasion.

Read the last chapter of Revelation again for the first time. :think:

The only Sciptures I have ever witnessed that could be remotely construed to indicate anything about the lake being temporary is young's, and that's only because no one really knows what "age during" means. Eternal life is just as long as eternal second death.

What is the difference between life and death, Nin?
There is a big difference between the two.

Again, the LAST enemy to be DESTROYED is DEATH!

 

[Ecumenicist]

No, it is contra-Biblical, and suffering to achieve salvation is works, whether you recognize it or not; but since you don't recognize the original lie, "You shall not surely die," in its new package, I'm sure you won't.

Matt 3:
11"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Chaff is a part of the wheat before the winnowing occurs.

Christ does the winnowing, not us.

 

[logos_x]

Now I understand what you were driving at Dave.

Outstanding point!

 

[Aimiel]

Christ does the winnowing, not us.

It isn't winnowing, to suffer in an imagined 'corrective' torment, it is works, whether you recognize the truth of it or not. :duh: