BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Okay. But look at Revelations. Hell and death are cast into the lake of fire BEFORE people are judged and sent to the second death. Sop what is the second death really? It can't be physical because that was already cast into the lake of fire. What is the second death really?

Well, Hell and death here, I believe, is in reference to those that were held by Hell and Death...not a proclamation that what is thrown in is immortal.

Consider..the Last enemy to be overthrown is death...I also believe that means both spiritual and physical death...ALL death.

You will also notice that the making of mankind into immortal rather than mortal is AFTER this...when the "tree of life" is once again revealed in the new Jerusalem in the last chapter of Revelation.

This is why Paul said that the LAST enemy to be overcome is death...because all things will be brought into subjection to Christ, so that God may be all in all.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well, Hell and death here, I believe, is in reference to those that were held by Hell and Death...not a proclamation that what is thrown in is immortal.

Consider..the Last enemy to be overthrown is death...I also believe that means both spiritual and physical death...ALL death.

But that is not what scripture says. It plainly says that death is thrown in the lake then people are judged and sent to their second death in the lake of fire.

You will also notice that the making of mankind into immortal rather than mortal is AFTER this...when the "tree of life" is once again revealed in the new Jerusalem in the last chapter of Revelation.

This would not be available to those sent to the second death in the lake of fire.

This is why Paul said that the LAST enemy to be overcome is death...because all things will be brought into subjection to Christ, so that God may be all in all.

This is still week theology. You make all in all mean something that is not supported by scripture.

 

[logos_x]

But that is not what scripture says. It plainly says that death is thrown in the lake then people are judged and sent to their second death in the lake of fire.

Hold on and think a minute.
Death is destroyed at that point? People go to a second death? How can death be destroyed there and people still go into a second death?
Does that make sense to you/

This would not be available to those sent to the second death in the lake of fire.

Whosoever will, C.M. Who are being invited in? those already there? Those outside?
Who's outside the New Jerusalem, C.M.? Aren't those the same folks that were thrown into the lake of fire? Are we not saying "come" to those outside...even then?

This is still week theology. You make all in all mean something that is not supported by scripture.

Oh...so it should read all in some, then? What does all in all mean? All in all, seems to me, means just what it says. How can it not mean all in all?

 

[Aimiel]

This is still week theology. You make all in all mean something that is not supported by scripture.

B'zactly. :hammer:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Hold on and think a minute.
Death is destroyed at that point? People go to a second death? How can death be destroyed there and people still go into a second death?
Does that make sense to you/

Yes, It does. The death thrown into the lake of ire is physical death. The second death is seperation from God. Eternal seperation from God.

Whosoever will, C.M. Who are being invited in? those already there? Those outside?
Who's outside the New Jerusalem, C.M.? Aren't those the same folks that were thrown into the lake of fire? Are we not saying "come" to those outside...even then?

Whosoever accepted Jesus in this one short life we know on Earth, they are invited in - and accepted the invetation. Being in the lake of fire would be, by definition, outside of New Jerusalem, would it not?

Oh...so it should read all in some, then? What does all in all mean? All in all, seems to me, means just what it says. How can it not mean all in all?

For God to be all in all does not require everthing to be with God, it requires everything to be subject to God. Those in the lake of fire are subject to God even though they are seperated from God.

 

[logos_x]

Ok, C.M. All in all cannot mean all in all when the Bible says all in all.
The Bible says "eternal" chastisment when it says only aionion.

Anything else you guys want to change?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Ok, C.M. All in all cannot mean all in all when the Bible says all in all.
The Bible says "eternal" chastisment when it says only aionion.

Anything else you guys want to change?

All we want to do is change back to the original that which universal salvation has corrupted.

 

[logos_x]

All we want to do is change back to the original that which universal salvation has corrupted.

Universal Salvation WAS the original.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Universal Salvation WAS the original.

No. Universal salvation has been around for s long time. There has always been a group of people who choose to believe tis the original because it is easier to deal with that the truth of Bible as the Bible presents it. Universal salvation is a whole lot easier to sell than Biblical truth. And that truth is that rejection of Jesus carries a harsh penalty. he good news is that Jesus has paid that penalty for you IFF you accept His offer of salvation here and now.

 

[logos_x]

No. Universal salvation has been around for s long time. There has always been a group of people who choose to believe tis the original because it is easier to deal with that the truth of Bible as the Bible presents it. Universal salvation is a whole lot easier to sell than Biblical truth. And that truth is that rejection of Jesus carries a harsh penalty. he good news is that Jesus has paid that penalty for you IFF you accept His offer of salvation here and now.

Nope. Eternal torment was not believed by the Jews. Jesus did not teach it, the Old Testament doesn't teach it, and Neither does the New Testament. Eternal torment was belived by other nations, particularly those under Roman Rule. This belief was clung to even after some were converted to Christ.

The first to utilize eternal torment sysematically in the formulation of Christain doctrine formally was Augustine, who converted from manicheanism to Christ, and using the Latin translation used unending misery as an interpretive grid while reading scripture. Augustine went so far as to say he hated Greek. I wonder why :think:

The Roman Church then set out to dtermine what was "true" Christian doctrine, and imposed eternal torment on the rest of the believing world. Those that taught otherwise were declared heretical. The rest is history.

The majority of the Greek speaking world did not see eternal torment spoken of in scripture at all. I wonder, why? :think:

Both of these beliefs have been around for a long time. But I'm iterseted in what the scriptures actually teach, and their effects. Fact is, when it comes to the Hebrew and the Greek employed in scripture, it is very easy to see why the Greek speaking world did not see eternal torment in what was written.

The problem, clearly, arose when translations were employed...not the Hebrew and Greek scriptures themselves.

Look at how much you need to change in scripture for your "original" eternal torment doctrine. This should tell you something.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Nope. Eternal torment was not believed by the Jews. Jesus did not teach it, the Old Testament doesn't teach it, and Neither does the New Testament. Eternal torment was belived by other nations, particularly those under Roman Rule. This belief was clung to even after some were converted to Christ.

Eternal hell as in the lake of fire did not exist under the OT. The OT view was more of a "two-roomed" waiting area - Abrahams bosoom and not. The NT does teach it. Jesus Himself teaches it.

Look at how much you need to change in scripture for your "original" eternal torment doctrine. This should tell you something.

Point to the scripture I have changed! Ah yes. Age-during. A translation of aionion that nobody but the universalist agrees with. GOt another?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave, if I recall correctly you still have a post to reply to. Wanna pick up the convo from there?

How about from here? God is present, even in Hell. Scripture says so.

 

[Nineveh]

They did know how to express forever.
They didn't. Instead they used a word that DOESN'T mean forever on its own..aion and it's adjectives, which means age, in the plural it means ages, and aionion means "pertaining to an age or ages". In order to get and endless aion they would expressthat by using another word that means endless to show it as endless.
They didn't.

So what word means "forever" in Greek?

Death being under Christs feet says death is not victorius. That you believe death will be victorious is an addition. Making the aions of chastisment endless is also an addition, requiring the adding of a word meaning endless to judgments.

I don't recall saying the lake was "chastisement". That is yours I believe. If no one really ever dies, then doesn't that seem to say satan wasn't lying?

Love never fails...yet it requires no force for it to work.

Wait a sec... you have claimed the lake is a place for people to go until they repent. Right? What's that if not "force"?

Nineveh, what you fail to realize is man is corrupted. Their "hearts desire" is really messed up. Much of salvation depends on our messed up hearts being healed of those wrong desires. If God leaves them under the influence of these messed up desires He has not met our greatest need...which is to cause us to change or minds and hearts and all those desires that are contrary to His will.

By forcing them in the lake?

Men cannot save themselves...it is literally impossible. But with God all things are possible.

Men must be able to save themselves, because God doesn't promise to be with them in the lake.

One that lasts forever and cannot remedy the corruption of creation fully...supposedly.
He could not find any way to cause a change of mind and heart instead, could He?

Of course he can! He can force them by using the lake.

The Bible also says He will do all His desire.
Once again you confuse the process with the outcome.

I am going to ask you to cite that and I promise I won't be shocked when it's out of context.

And you are right..if that is what I was saying He was going to do. But you either don't understand what I'm saying or you are misrepresenting what I said to make it appear ridiculous.

Not really. You claim that ALL will be saved, that means God has to babysit the lake "age during". If it sounds ridiculous, don't blame me.

Again...you really need to re-think what it means to be in subjection to Christ.

Rather I'm not going to pigeon hole "subjection" to mean all repent and suddenly love God. Especially considering the majority have and do hate Him.

A true translation would not force a meaning upon a word that is not there..

A good translation takes a word or phrase and translates into understandable language.

It's a wonder anyone is saved then, isn't it?

Some still seek Him.

Then he will not be in subjection...which makes the Word of God untrue.

"Being in a position or in circumstances that place one under the power or authority of another or others", sure looks like it to me. It just seems you "don't like" the idea.

It made them subject to death. It also changed how they view themselves and God.
Next question?

What happened to "make them subject to death"? What changed in their view of themselves and God?

 

[Nineveh]

How about from here?

You wanted to talk about unconditional love, so go back and pick up where you left off.

 

[red77]

So what word means "forever" in Greek?

"Aidios", its used twice in the Bible but not to denote eternal punishment,

I don't recall saying the lake was "chastisement". That is yours I believe. If no one really ever dies, then doesn't that seem to say satan wasn't lying?

Everyone dies but death is the final enemy to be overcome, unless you believe the second death to be permanent unending misery in which case it isnt,

Men must be able to save themselves, because God doesn't promise to be with them in the lake.

So its MAN who saves himself in the end is it? Not God? With God all things are possible but the restoration of his own creation isnt because it depends on MAN?!

Not really. You claim that ALL will be saved, that means God has to babysit the lake "age during". If it sounds ridiculous, don't blame me.

Of course, non ending purposeless agonising torment makes so much more sense than in believing that God can restore his own creation
:rain:

Rather I'm not going to pigeon hole "subjection" to mean all repent and suddenly love God. Especially considering the majority have and do hate Him.

Should we 'pigeonhole' all things being in subjection TO God as actually many things being subjected AWAY from him?

A good translation takes a word or phrase and translates into understandable language.

A good translation remains faithful to the original Greek and Hebrew texts

 

[CabinetMaker]

"Aidios", its used twice in the Bible but not to denote eternal punishment,




Everyone dies but death is the final enemy to be overcome, unless you believe the second death to be permanent unending misery in which case it isnt,




So its MAN who saves himself in the end is it? Not God? With God all things are possible but the restoration of his own creation isnt because it depends on MAN?!




Of course, non ending purposeless agonising torment makes so much more sense than in believing that God can restore his own creation
:rain:




Should we 'pigeonhole' all things being in subjection TO God as actually many things being subjected AWAY from him?




A good translation remains faithful to the original Greek and Hebrew texts

Oh God can and will restore His creation. Question is, will you be a part of it or not? The answer to that question is determined in this life.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

"Aidios", its used twice in the Bible but not to denote eternal punishment,

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting[aidios] chains for judgment on the great Day.

So even "aidios" is used to denote eternal punishment.

Incidentally, "aionios" also means "eternal" as found in John 3:16 ... "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (zoen aionion)", or in 2 Corinthians 4:18 (where only a great fool would argue that it didn't mean eternal).

The universalist kooks reject this only because it doesn't fit with their pet theology. After all, they need this word to mean "just for a season", something any Greek scholar would laugh at.

 

[Ecumenicist]

You wanted to talk about unconditional love, so go back and pick up where you left off.

remind me, alot of pages have passed since then.

I think you were talking about throwing folks out of church for sexual immorality.

Since Christ includes "lustful thoughts" in that category, that would probably make for
a pretty small congregation, or a very dishonest one.

 

[Nineveh]

remind me, alot of pages have passed since then.

The one who left the convo way back there should be the one to go find it.

I think you were talking about throwing folks out of church for sexual immorality.

Close. I asked you if members of your congregation were committing sexual immorality, what would you do. Then I asked, if Paul said anything about this and if so where.

Since Christ includes "lustful thoughts" in that category, that would probably make for a pretty small congregation, or a very dishonest one.

What is a pastor's role in a congregation? While a pastor can not control the flock's thoughts, he certainly can influence his congregation towards conforming to Christ and teaching them to "...take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.", wouldn't you say?

 

[Redfin]

Incidentally, "aionios" also means "eternal" as found in John 3:16 ... "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (zoen aionion)", or in 2 Corinthians 4:18 (where only a great fool would argue that it didn't mean eternal).

Here, you are arguing backwards from your preferred (or perhaps your pre-feared) conclusion.

That is not a recommended hermeneutic. :nono:

As logos_X has amply demonstrated in the past, the "aionos" passages, including John 3:16, are not needed to Biblically establish the fact of eternal life.

Thus, the doctrine of eternal life is in no danger whatsoever from Christian Universalism.

In fact, C.U. expands the scope of eternal life in both quantity and quality far beyond the doctrine of eternal torment, and it does so Biblically.

Think about it.

:think: