BRXII Battle talk

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Aimiel

Well-known member
Dave Miller said:
Like the fireman who refuses to leave a building until everyone is out and safe. He doesn't want to be in the burning building, but he does so willingly. This is what Jesus did for us, its what we're called to do for others. Why would Jesus ask us to be merciful and loving in life, but heartless and cruel in eternity, ignoring the suffering of others?
It is heartless and cruel to not warn them against hell, ignoring the words of The Lord, Who said, "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

Dave, your writings often remind me of this passage, though I can't imagine why... :think:

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; how that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
 

Balder

New member
Aimiel, yes, it would be heartless and cruel not to warn people about the fact that their house was on fire and they were about to be burned alive. It is also heartless and cruel to start a fire which you know beforehand is going to cause many people unbearable pain. And it is heartless and cruel to toss people screaming into a burning firepit.

Dave, thanks for your excellent analogy.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Balder said:
It is also heartless and cruel to start a fire which you know beforehand is going to cause many people unbearable pain. And it is heartless and cruel to toss people screaming into a burning firepit.
It would be more than merely heartless and cruel to put no limits upon people or angels, and allow more evil than we could possibly imagine, were there no punishment and containment for sin. Thank God that He has set limits upon the sea, as well as upon the enemy of our souls, and everyone who follows in his footsteps, doing the same deeds.
 

logos_x

New member
Aimiel said:
It would be more than merely heartless and cruel to put no limits upon people or angels, and allow more evil than we could possibly imagine, were there no punishment and containment for sin. Thank God that He has set limits upon the sea, as well as upon the enemy of our souls, and everyone who follows in his footsteps, doing the same deeds.

No one is suggesting there are no limits upon people or angels nor that there is no punishment and containment of sin. We're saying that sin will be done away completely.

We are also saying that there must be limits to the punishment so that it accomplishes something in line with God's intentions of saving all men...something that the doctrine of eternal torment insists cannot happen.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
logos_x said:
No one is suggesting there are no limits upon people or angels nor that there is no punishment and containment of sin. We're saying that sin will be done away completely.

We are also saying that there must be limits to the punishment so that it accomplishes something in line with God's intentions of saving all men...something that the doctrine of eternal torment insists cannot happen.
And you still refuse to see the diference between punishment for sin and punishment for rejecting Christ.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
logos_x said:
A couple of yes/no questions for you.

Did Jesus die on the cross for the forgiveness of sin under the old testament? Yes or No?

Was He succesfull? Yes or No?

You said there is no difference between sin and rejecting Jesus. The Bible does not say that. Jesus led the perfect life under the and died under that law to compete it. Your sins under the law of the old testament are forgiven: behind God never to be remembered forgiven. Forgivene as in there is no more punishment for any sin you commint as defined by that law. Do you agree with that? Yes or no?

Is rejecting Christ a sin? Yes or No?

Is rejecting Christ a sin under old testament law? Yes or No?

If it was not a sin under the old testament law, would Jesus' death to fullfil the OT law have been able to forgive a sin that did not exist under that law? Yes or No?

So, if your sins under the law are forgiven, what sin remains?
 

logos_x

New member
CabinetMaker said:
A couple of yes/no questions for you.

Did Jesus die on the cross for the forgiveness of sin under the old testament? Yes or No?

He is the propitiation for our sins...and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.
He died for the sins of all mankind.

Was He succesfull? Yes or No?

Yes

You said there is no difference between sin and rejecting Jesus. The Bible does not say that. Jesus led the perfect life under the and died under that law to compete it. Your sins under the law of the old testament are forgiven: behind God never to be remembered forgiven. Forgivene as in there is no more punishment for any sin you commint as defined by that law. Do you agree with that? Yes or no?

Is rejecting Jesus not a sin?
No..I do not agree.



Is rejecting Christ a sin? Yes or No?

Yes

Is rejecting Christ a sin under old testament law? Yes or No?

There is no yes or no answer here.


If it was not a sin under the old testament law, would Jesus' death to fullfil the OT law have been able to forgive a sin that did not exist under that law? Yes or No?

Yes.

So, if your sins under the law are forgiven, what sin remains?

None of them.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
logos_x said:
No one is suggesting there are no limits upon people or angels nor that there is no punishment and containment of sin. We're saying that sin will be done away completely. We are also saying that there must be limits to the punishment so that it accomplishes something in line with God's intentions of saving all men...something that the doctrine of eternal torment insists cannot happen.
Indeed, common sense, as well. If you limit God to only ten minutes of punishment (or 10 million years, for that matter) you're putting a limit upon Him Who has no limits. He is The Only One Who understands eternity. We are temporal. He is The One Who proclaimed that the Lake of Fire will never go out. He is The One Who warned about how important it is to escape hell. He gave us a way out. There is a limit to sin, boundaries set upon demons as well as men, because God cannot allow sin to rule His creation. Sin and evil is not merely error, it involves choice. Choosing death rather than life doesn't result in life. Those who serve sin will suffer its punishment. That punishment matches its violation. Sin is a violation of The Eternal God; the Lake of Fire is eternal punishment fit for the crime: violating The Eternal One brings eternal punishment.
 

logos_x

New member
Aimiel said:
Indeed, common sense, as well. If you limit God to only ten minutes of punishment (or 10 million years, for that matter) you're putting a limit upon Him Who has no limits. He is The Only One Who understands eternity. We are temporal. He is The One Who proclaimed that the Lake of Fire will never go out. He is The One Who warned about how important it is to escape hell. He gave us a way out. There is a limit to sin, boundaries set upon demons as well as men, because God cannot allow sin to rule His creation. Sin and evil is not merely error, it involves choice. Choosing death rather than life doesn't result in life. Those who serve sin will suffer its punishment. That punishment matches its violation. Sin is a violation of The Eternal God; the Lake of Fire is eternal punishment fit for the crime: violating The Eternal One brings eternal punishment.

If you are making punishment out to HAVE to be lasting for all eternity, and from which God cannot redeem them from...that would be placing limits upon God...would it not?
 

Solaris

New member
Aimiel said:
Indeed, common sense, as well. If you limit God to only ten minutes of punishment (or 10 million years, for that matter) you're putting a limit upon Him Who has no limits. He is The Only One Who understands eternity. We are temporal. He is The One Who proclaimed that the Lake of Fire will never go out. He is The One Who warned about how important it is to escape hell. He gave us a way out. There is a limit to sin, boundaries set upon demons as well as men, because God cannot allow sin to rule His creation. Sin and evil is not merely error, it involves choice. Choosing death rather than life doesn't result in life. Those who serve sin will suffer its punishment. That punishment matches its violation. Sin is a violation of The Eternal God; the Lake of Fire is eternal punishment fit for the crime: violating The Eternal One brings eternal punishment.

Common sense as well as our consciences (for the most part) dictate that eternal tormenting is pointless/sadistic and cruel
 

Solaris

New member
logos_x said:
If you are making punishment out to HAVE to be lasting for all eternity, and from which God cannot redeem them from...that would be placing limits upon God...would it not?

Yes, it would indeed
 

logos_x

New member
Solaris said:
Common sense as well as our consciences (for the most part) dictate that eternal tormenting is pointless/sadistic and cruel

It accomplishes abosolutely NOTHING.

That should be a big clue.

Common sense? Obviously, unending torment is NOT anything of the sort.
 

Solaris

New member
logos_x said:
It accomplishes abosolutely NOTHING.

That should be a big clue.

Common sense? Obviously, unending torment is NOT anything of the sort.

I have this sad feeling of inevitability that the word 'justice' is going to be mentioned, this is what it 'accomplishes'...
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
logos_x said:
CabinetMaker said:
You said there is no difference between sin and rejecting Jesus. The Bible does not say that. Jesus led the perfect life under the and died under that law to compete it. Your sins under the law of the old testament are forgiven: behind God never to be remembered forgiven. Forgivene as in there is no more punishment for any sin you commint as defined by that law. Do you agree with that? Yes or no?

Is rejecting Jesus not a sin?
No..I do not agree.


CabinetMaker said:
Is rejecting Christ a sin? Yes or No?


Yes
Did you mean to contridict yourself so openly here?

Logos_x said:
CabinetMaker said:
Is rejecting Christ a sin under old testament law? Yes or No?

There is no yes or no answer here.
Your kidding, right? Can you show me the law in one of the first 5 books of the OT that says rejecting Christ as your Lord and Saciour is a sin?


Logos_x said:
CabinetMaker said:
If it was not a sin under the old testament law, would Jesus' death to fullfil the OT law have been able to forgive a sin that did not exist under that law? Yes or No?

Yes.
If was not a sin under the law of the OT Jesus did not die for it. I did not exist as a sin.


None of them.[/QUOTE]

Logos, you are, intentionally, missing the point. Rejecting Jesus is the only sin under the new testament. It is the only sin that will convict you upon your death.
 

logos_x

New member
Solaris said:
I have this sad feeling of inevitability that the word 'justice' is going to be mentioned, this is what it 'accomplishes'...

If God does something unjust...does it make it just?

Personally, I think that God's character should be enough to convince anyone that He would not consider eternal misery just because it's miserable and not doing anything about it forever "justice".
 

logos_x

New member
CabinetMaker said:
Did you mean to contridict yourself so openly here?


Your kidding, right? Can you show me the law in one of the first 5 books of the OT that says rejecting Christ as your Lord and Saciour is a sin?



If was not a sin under the law of the OT Jesus did not die for it. I did not exist as a sin.


None of them.

Logos, you are, intentionally, missing the point. Rejecting Jesus is the only sin under the new testament. It is the only sin that will convict you upon your death.


You are intentionally missing the point.

There is no sin that MUST last forever. There is no punishment for any sin that MUST last forever.

What do we call "punishing"...just to punish but not to change behavior?

Sadism. Abuse. Punishment, just for it's own sake.

Will God engage in that behavior toward everyone that has not repented before physical death? Or will He forever be intentionally working to save them?

What say you?
 

Solaris

New member
logos_x said:
If God does something unjust...does it make it just?

Personally, I think that God's character should be enough to convince anyone that He would not consider eternal misery just because it's miserable and not doing anything about it forever "justice".

I agree, God's character is love, God is love, I think that should also be enough for people to question just what it is they're accusing God of doing, eternal fiery torment = love? Is God's love/character limited by anything? only if one believes in eternal torment
 
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