Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

[glorydaz]

I received the gift when I repented.

And thus your mind was changed from unbelief to belief [trust].


And?

I asked you when Christ died for your sins and when was He delivered for your offences. Simple questions with a ball park answer of "about 2000 years ago" would have sufficed. Why couldn't you answer? Will your open theism not allow you to? Were your sins non existent when Christ died for them? Instead you said, "when I received the gift when I repented" so I'll go with that...

Christ didn't die for your sins when you "received the gift when you repented". That is one of the saddest things I have ever heard from someone named a brother.



I could have no opinion about Christ and one day hear the gospel preached and trust the Lord believing it for salvation and be saved and sealed. No "repenting", just trusting Him believing.

People don't have to "repent/change their mind" for a gift. They receive the offer.

People aren't blinded by the god of this world because they "repent not", but because they "believe not" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV).

People don't go to hell because they didn't "repent". They go to hell for receiving not the love of the truth that they might be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV).

Paul writes that we are to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV). A person can "repent" until they're blue in the face, but if there's never been a moment when they trusted the Lord for salvation believing Christ died for THEIR sins, was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), they're not in the faith.

Gentiles such as we weren't even in the picture yet. We were still without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) until Paul spilled the beans that God had a mystery that included the likes of us (Ephesians 3)!

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

We became fellowheirs and of the same Body and partaker of His promise in Christ BY THE GOSPEL!

IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth!

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Okay, it seems to me you're missing something. Notice how Lighthouse said, "I received the gift when I repented" and you misquoted him in your reply. The repentance part is what I'd like to address, and it seems you've thrown out the word repentance because of what it means to some people or what it meant pre-cross. Sins were left at the cross, so after the cross, repentance is TOWARD GOD. The "all men every where" who are commanded to repent really does mean "all men"....because it is literally and "about face". Turning from serving idols to serving the living God. Turning from unbelief to belief. Turning from denying to the truth to acknowledging the truth. Repent/believe are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other, and I think Paul supports that in all his writings.

Repentance TOWARD GOD is that "profitable" thing that Paul preached to all men everywhere. Which, I believe, is exactly what Lighthouse was saying. That repentance, "change of mind", is so much a part of belief that it can't be separated from it.

Acts 20:20-22 KJV
And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:​

 

[glorydaz]

That is what it means to believe the gospel. To admit he died for your sin means you have sin. Repentance in the red letters is a change in behavior. The prodigal son returned home, and stopped being a whoremonger and drunkard.

I think that's because that's all they had before the cross. They could only change their behavior and trust to that....through the keeping of the law or obedience to one's conscience. Of course, the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS changes everything. Instead of trusting in our own righteousness, we "change our mind" and trust in His. To me, that's the repentance Paul is talking about.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes, for sin (singular) and sins (plural)!

(All bolding my emphasis)

And I affirm that.

I knew that's what OVers believe, but it still makes my jawdrop. It still makes me sick to my stomach. What a disgusting display of unbelief! You spit on the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in your place! You're so spoiled by your philosophy you can't see straight. Your mind is corrupted. You deny that Christ died for your sins which is a very important part of the very gospel that is the power of God to save you (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)! Face what you deny!

I must correct a miscommunication on my part: I do believe that Christ died for sins, however I do not believe He was dying for specific sins that would be committed in the future, as they had not been committed and as the future did not exist it could not be known what specific sins would be committed then.

I have never denied that Christ died for my sin. You are twisting my words.

Romans 4:25 KJV Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

You deny that Christ died for your sins (plural). It doesn't say sin (singular) there it says sins (plural) and you don't believe it as it is written.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

You deny that He gave Himself for your sins (plural).

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

You don't believe you had any trespasses to forgive, let alone all of them.

And just whose "body of the sins of the flesh" needed to be put off by the circumcision of Christ?

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

I'll answer the question for you: They were ours!

You are utterly hard-headed and willfully unreasonable as you are clearly opposed to having a reasonable discussion and allowing for communication so as to understand what someone meant, or if they have mistakenly conveyed their beliefs to be something other than what they actually are.

Christ died for all sins that would be committed, and all that had been, without knowing specifically who would exist and/or what sins they would commit.

I asked, "When did Christ die for your sins? When was He delivered for your offences?" Your reply was:

I think it's you who needs to pay attention.

You are ignoring the question I asked which was my response to that specific question in order to puff yourself up. I gave a more definitive answer in my next post, which you also ignore. You are full of pride.

Sure you have as proven above by all those verses that have "sins" in them. The sins (plural) that you deny that Christ died for.

See my responses above.

I was mocking the fact that you and others are always using the term. And Bob Enyart is more of an example than I of someone who doesn't "really understand what it means to repent" when he says things like, “He is giving opportunity for people to repent of their sins, even of killing their own children, and turning to Him” and “Repent or you’re going to hell” as he did in this show http://kgov.com/bel/20110120 I mean really, it sounds like a Way of the Master perverted gospel. Maybe you should suggest he take an English class. Better yet, a gospel 101 class.

You are quite ignorant if you do not understand that repenting of sins was an actual thing, and necessary for those who wanted to follow God prior to salvation being given.

No, having never had an opinion about Christ and one day hearing the gospel preached and trusting the Lord believing it for salvation is not a "change of mind". It's trusting the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth (Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Romans 10:17 KJV So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's not by repenting.

You are completely daft.

I know and understand just fine. I didn't need to change my mind to receive the gift. I received it by faith.

Foolishness.

That transforming is the renewing of a saved individual. We know this because you cannot serve unless you are saved. It certainly could not be an unbeliever as they that are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:8 KJV).

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No duh, Dick Tracy.

You need to spend less time in your Greek and Hebrew and believe the word of God as it is written.

:doh:

It was written in Hebrew and Greek, and sometimes Aramaic.

So you say.

:blabla:

I already did. Bob does not recognize who the twain made one new man are and therefore cannot make all men see the fellowship of the mystery.

good job on quoting the book to prove your argument... Oh, wait.

You're backtracking.

You really can't read, can you?

I said, "That is not our pattern for forgiving one another. This is:

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

To which you replied: "And He forgave us when we repented."

That's what was said and you've yet to explain why you run to a pattern of forgiveness under the kingdom gospel when it differs from the pattern that Paul wrote to us on forgiving one another. That's not rightly dividing. That's not holding fast the form of sound words that you have heard of Paul. Bob uses the same example for forgiving as you. You both err there.

You're working under the false assumption that since it was applicable under the previous dispensation that it does not hold true for this one. and you are failing to prove that premise.

So then it couldn't be as you said earlier. You say God "forgave us when we repented" so yes, you disagree with Colossians 2:13 KJV.

:doh:

He quickened us together with Christ when we believed, which is a change of mind from not believing.

It means made alive. Now you know what it means, too.

I've known what it means for about thirty years. Though I admit I did not fully understand it until about a decade ago.

 

[way 2 go]

You were speaking of the requirements for salvation for those under the law and you said:

"like i said there was no atonement (work) to be made for adultery or murder.

But how do you explain the fact that David was both an adulterer and a murderer but he was saved?

2Sa 12:13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

So despite the fact that he was an adulterer and a murderer he kept the law?

1Ki 3:14 And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked

Did not the Spirit depart from the Apostles sometime after the day of Pentecost? If not how do you explain that later at Acts 4:31 they were filled with the Holy Spirit?

the spirit did not depart


Act 3:6 But Peter said, "I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

2Sa 12:13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

That is exactly what Paul was referring to when he used David as an example of someone justified apart from the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

David lived under the law and according to your mistaken ideas he could not be saved APART from works but this passage which I quoted proves that you are wrong. But you cannot understand what is said there because you said:

I never said David wasn't saved i said works were necessary

Despite your denial of the obvious all of the saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith and if it is of works then it cannot be said that it is by grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).​

All you prove is the fact that you have no use of the Scriptures because you think that you already know it all.

 

[heir]

I must correct a miscommunication on my part: I do believe that Christ died for sins, however I do not believe He was dying for specific sins that would be committed in the future, as they had not been committed and as the future did not exist it could not be known what specific sins would be committed then.

You believe Christ died for sins, just not yours as you are not one of the "ours". Got it.

I believe that Christ was delivered for my offences/died for my sins/gave Himself for my sins.

Romans 4:25 KJV Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Galatians 1:4 KJV Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Christ died for all sins that would be committed, and all that had been, without knowing specifically who would exist and/or what sins they would commit.

Romans 8:29 KJV For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You are quite ignorant if you do not understand that repenting of sins was an actual thing, and necessary for those who wanted to follow God prior to salvation being given.

“He is giving opportunity for people to repent of their sins, even of killing their own children, and turning to Him” and “Repent or you’re going to hell” as he did in this show http://kgov.com/bel/20110120

Scripture, please.

It was written in Hebrew and Greek, and sometimes Aramaic.

oh, haha. I forgot I am not speaking to someone who believes we have all scripture and that it "is given" not "was given" as you say (2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). my bad

good job on quoting the book to prove your argument... Oh, wait.

Bob places the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. Bob does not see the differences there were in Gentiles recognizing those in the commonwealth and those aliens from the commonwealth. He doesn't acknowledge the first group in the Body as the remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (that OV is a major blinder) and cannot see that after they were gathered Paul was sent far hence. Therefore, he does not recognize the twain made one new man and fails to make all men see the fellowship of the mystery.

He quickened us together with Christ when we believed, which is a change of mind from not believing.

Christ was quickened 2000 years ago and we were quickened together with Him.

 

[glorydaz]

Christ was quickened 2000 years ago and we were quickened together with Him.

That almost sounds like something a Calvinist would say. :idunno:

I know I was "quickened" back in 1970 when I believed.

1 Timothy 1:16
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.​

 

[heir]

That almost sounds like something a Calvinist would say. :idunno:

I know I was "quickened" back in 1970 when I believed.

Believing the passage (Colossians 2:13 KJV) does not make one a Calvinist. I believe I was forgiven all trespasses when I was quickened together with Christ.

Calvinists believe that God chose some for heaven and some for hell. I don't believe that (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[Lighthouse]

You believe Christ died for sins, just not yours as you are not one of the "ours". Got it.

You are purposely twisting what I say, and as such are not worth my time. You don't even understand that people need to repent [turn from] of their sins, regardless of the bearing it has on salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

Believing the passage (Colossians 2:13 KJV) does not make one a Calvinist. I believe I was forgiven all trespasses when I was quickened together with Christ.

Calvinists believe that God chose some for heaven and some for hell. I don't believe that (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). I'm not a Calvinist.

Oh, I thought you were saying you were "quickened" 2000 years ago, rather than when you believed.

Christ was quickened 2000 years ago and we were quickened together with Him.

 

[way 2 go]

That is exactly what Paul was referring to when he used David as an example of someone justified apart from the law:

2Sa 12:13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

David deserved death.
God forgave him
God didn't free him from keeping the law
which David kept

David lived under the law and according to your mistaken ideas he could not be saved APART from works but this passage which I quoted proves that you are wrong. But you cannot understand what is said there because you said:

the passage you quote proves david was forgiven of murder and adultery
and that Christians today have what David only
had a taste of because he had to keep the law

1Ki 3:14 And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked

Despite your denial of the obvious all of the saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith and if it is of works then it cannot be said that it is by grace:

no denial
Saul was not treated the same as David

Lev 20:6 "If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).​

that is how we are saved today apart from circumcision
David was circumcised and kept the law ,no denying that

All you prove is the fact that you have no use of the Scriptures because you think that you already know it all.

what about Saul ?

 

[Nick M]

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

It is staggering how many people deny this.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is staggering how many people deny this.

In order to understand what is said at 1 Samuel 16:14 the whole context must be understood:

"And the Lord said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?...Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him...And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him" (1 Sam.16:1,13-14,23).​

The giving of the Spirit of the Lord to David was the supernatural authentication of God's will in regard to the giving of the throne of Israel to David. Likewise, the taking away of the Spirit from Saul was a supernatural authentication of God's will in regard to the taking away of the throne from Saul.

If you actually want to know the truth if those who lived under the law could lose their salvation all you have to do is to study the Lord Jesus' words spoken to those who lived under the law. Here He said:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.10:37).​

Frankly, I am dismayed and appalled that so many just deny these words of the Lord Jesus. I am equally dismayed by those who say that the Jews who lived under the law had to do works in order to be saved since the Lord Jesus said that faith is all that is needed:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[that is how we are saved today apart from circumcision
David was circumcised and kept the law ,no denying that

Here is what the Lord Jesus told those who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

The Jews who were saved were saved by faith alone, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words here:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:47-50).​

Those under the law were saved by grace through faith, just as we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).​

You obviously have no understanding of "grace" because you continue to insist that those who lived under the law could not be ssaved apart from works despite the fact that they were saved by grace.

 

[Nick M]

in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

Whatever you do Jerry, don't admit this is how it was for Israel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

Whatever you do Jerry, don't admit this is how it was for Israel.

Yes, if a Jew kept the law perfectly then he could inherit eternal life. But if he sinned just once he was guilty of all:

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:9-10).​

Since being guilty of all will save no one are you suggesting that in order to be saved the Jews who lived under the law must have lived a sinless life?

 

[way 2 go]

You obviously have no understanding of "grace" because you continue to insist that those who lived under the law could not be ssaved apart from works despite the fact that they were saved by grace.

like you said "they are UNDER the LAW"

we are not

where in Leviticus does God say just kidding you don't have to keep
these laws its by grace?

the word grace does not even appear in the book of Leviticus

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by way 2 go
1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

It is staggering how many people deny this.

I don't get how people backdate what we have today to the people
in the dispensation of the law

i wonder if they think everyone had the Holy Spirit back then?

 

[Nick M]

Yes, if a Jew kept the law perfectly then he could inherit eternal life. But if he sinned just once he was guilty of all

So no grace, got it. No sacrificing the bull without spot or blemish. You remind me of an Obama press conference, it is like an alternate reality.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So no grace, got it.

I never said that and you know it. Those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith just as we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).​

No sacrificing the bull without spot or blemish. You remind me of an Obama press conference, it is like an alternate reality.

You remind me of Obama because you judst ignore the things which prove that you are wrong.

Those who lived under the law could not lose their salvation, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.10:37).​

You just flat out ignore these words of the Lord Jesus. And you say that the Jews who lived under the law had to do works in order to be saved despite the fact that the Lord Jesus said that faith is all that is needed:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:47-50).​

I can see that no matter how many verses that I quote to prove that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone and enjoyed eternal security you will believe none of them.