Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

[musterion]

You're seeing it. Happy studying!

Keep explaining, Priscilla, I'm listening! (seriously)

 

[Bright Raven]

I ordered Bob's book today and am looking forward to the read when it arrives.

 

[way 2 go]

I ordered Bob's book today and am looking forward to the read when it arrives.

when i read it i knew nothing about Mid Acts Dispensation
you will definitely have a different perspective of the plot than me.

 

[Tambora]

One of our resident TOLers bought me The Plot.

Spoiler

It was Stripe. Ain't he wonderful!

I am just now getting at a point where I have the time to really dive into it.
It should be a real good study through these winter months.
So I got this thread bookmarked so I can read through it as I read the book.

 

[Tambora]

I'll get right to it.

Romans 11:19-22 KJV Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.​

Romans 11:19-22 KJV cannot be speaking about us yet The Plot (Bob) says it is on or around pages 57-60 and again on page 69 (and no doubt, elsewhere). How could it possibly be speaking of us saved and sealed members of the Body of Christ? It can't be! We can't be cut off! When we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) we are saved and sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV)

This is a good point.

If OSAS is true, then the wild branches grafted in cannot be those that accept the gospel of grace. For as you say, they cannot be cut off.

So who do you say the wild branches are?

 

[way 2 go]

One of our resident TOLers bought me The Plot.

Spoiler

It was Stripe. Ain't he wonderful!

I am just now getting at a point where I have the time to really dive into it.
It should be a real good study through these winter months.
So I got this thread bookmarked so I can read through it as I read the book.

:thumb:


audio intro of the book 70min

http://kgov.com/bel/20141204

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This is a good point.

If OSAS is true, then the wild branches grafted in cannot be those that accept the gospel of grace. For as you say, they cannot be cut off.

So who do you say the wild branches are?

Good question, indeed.

I'm sure sister heir can answer this conclusively!

 

[Tambora]

Good question, indeed.

I'm sure sister heir can answer this conclusively!

You can answer too!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You can answer too!

We know a few things about the Romans:

1. They were Gentiles
2. Some of them had been circumcised and were CALLED a Jew
3. Before Paul's letter, they believed Jesus is the Christ
4. Before Paul's letter, they had not heard the gospel of Christ

So, the Gentiles grafted into the Olive Tree (Israel and her blessings) would be the ones that believed Jesus is the Christ but also had been circumcised.

 

[Tambora]

We know a few things about the Romans:

1. They were Gentiles
2. Some of them had been circumcised and were CALLED a Jew
3. Before Paul's letter, they believed Jesus is the Christ
4. Before Paul's letter, they had not heard the gospel of Christ

So, the Gentiles grafted into the Olive Tree (Israel and her blessings) would be the ones that believed Jesus is the Christ but also had been circumcised.

So, in your view, the wild branches in the verse are believing Gentile law keepers. Thus, proselyte Jews, that can be cut off, just as anyone is under law which is contrary to the gospel of grace.

Correct?

 

[heir]

This is a good point.

If OSAS is true, then the wild branches grafted in cannot be those that accept the gospel of grace. For as you say, they cannot be cut off.

So who do you say the wild branches are?

Hi Tambora,

Here are a couple of posts about the Romans.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3765291&postcount=39

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3767717&postcount=59

I hope it helps your study. Have a great day!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

So, in your view, the wild branches in the verse are believing Gentile law keepers. Thus, proselyte Jews, that can be cut off, just as anyone is under law which is contrary to the gospel of grace.

Correct?

The Olive Tree represents Israel and it's blessings. Those who rejected the earthly ministry of the LORD were cut off from the Olive Tree.

But, the Lord was able to graft them back in. Paul's ministry was to those who had been cut off from the Olive Tree (himself being one of them) and even these Gentiles in Rome had been graffed in as well, through belief that Jesus is the Christ.

This Olive Tree was present during the time frame of Acts. By the end of Acts, there was no advantage for the Jew (natural or wild).

Paul's goal during Acts was to get the natural branches and wild branches from the Olive Tree into the Body of Christ. From "faith to faith"...

That's how I see it!

 

[Tambora]

The Olive Tree represents Israel and it's blessings. Those who rejected the earthly ministry of the LORD were cut off from the Olive Tree.

But, the Lord was able to graft them back in. Paul's ministry was to those who had been cut off from the Olive Tree (himself being one of them) and even these Gentiles in Rome had been graffed in as well, through belief that Jesus is the Christ.

This Olive Tree was present during the time frame of Acts. By the end of Acts, there was no advantage for the Jew (natural or wild).

Paul's goal during Acts was to get the natural branches and wild branches from the Olive Tree into the Body of Christ. From "faith to faith"...

That's how I see it!

Makes sense, considering .....

Romans 11:28 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.​

It would not be the BOC that is the enemy of the gospel, but elect Israel.

 

[way 2 go]

This is a good point.

If OSAS is true, then the wild branches grafted in cannot be those that accept the gospel of grace. For as you say, they cannot be cut off.

So who do you say the wild branches are?

gentiles .

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

i read it as groups not individuals

as the Jews as a whole were rejected but individuals can be saved
and at some point the fullness of the gentiles will be reached

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[Danoh]

Pardon my replying to you again (if I'm ignored so be it) but the key word there is NATIONS. There were Gentile individuals who devoutly sought after God but (a) as best I can tell the ones we know of seemed to have had exposure to the O.T. Scriptures of the Jews and (b) if one of them wanted to BECOME right with God, they had to become proselytes.

So Bob's statement is biblically correct: the nations were all far from God and had been since Babel. Yet there were occasional individuals from those nations who, to some degree, recognized the revealed Truth when they saw it.

Now that Israel, too, as been cast aside in unbelief, ALL nations are basically Gentile in that God has NO favored nation today and deals with people on one basis only: individually through His Son, and through only one Gospel, the Gospel of grace.

(other MADs, feel free to correct any error in the above)

Yep.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

The question was: Were there Gentiles called Jews? Your answer was "proselyte". That's right and we see a Gentile here in Romans that Paul is zeroing in on. He's "called a jew".

Romans 2:17 KJV Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

There was only one way for a Gentile to be called a Jew and that would have been by circumcision (Romans 2:25 KJV).

So we have Gentiles called Jews in Romans.


Although Paul makes mention of Gentiles such as we in Romans 1:14 KJV, he had yet to let the cat out of the bag (2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV). He had not yet been sent far hence (Acts 22:21 KJV). There were some out of Israel that would believe (Romans 11:14 KJV). A remnant which God foreknew (Romans 11:5 KJV). To provoke the Jews to jealousy, Paul was sent to "the Gentiles" (Romans 11:11 KJV). There is more than one Gentile that Paul was sent to (and more than one sending Acts 26:16-17 KJV, for that matter). That's why I posed this question to you:

"Were there Gentiles who had hope and were in the promise and others who had no hope and were strangers from the covenants of promise in the Bible?"

I'm still waiting for your reply.




That's not what the text says. You can believe it means what it says. Read it carefully. It does not say God "could end the time of the Gentiles at ANYtime". You got that idea from somewhere else.

Romans 11:19-22 KJV Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And about the graffing in; in The Plot Bob writes that we're "grafted into Christ", but it is clear from the word of God that these Romans were graffed in to the olive tree (Romans 11:24 KJV) and it doesn't take too long to figure out who the tree represents. It's Israel. And of course, that is what these Gentiles in Romans 11 had a standing in before they had ever heard Paul's my gospel that would establish them into the Body which was the purpose of Paul writing to them in the first place (Romans 1:17 KJV, Romans 1:10-12 KJV, Romans 1:15 KJV).

We weren't grafted in to anything. Everyone who has ever been identified into the Body of Christ was/is baptized by one Spirit into one Body 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). It is a baptism (identification) into His death (Romans 6:3-4 KJV). It is a baptism into Christ (Galatians 3:27 KJV). That's baptized not grafted.


You posted Romans 11:22 KJV and then said,


First of all, no one in the Bible lost their salvation. Israel had to endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 24:13 KJV). Those in the Body of Christ are saved and sealed the moment we trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).
I believe Romans 11:22 KJV means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it. And this is just another reason to study with the KJB as opposed to the (per)versions. Thee and thou are singular in a King James Bible.|

Paul is zeroing in on one person. It's likely the same "o man" who is "called a jew" from chapter 2.

Romans 11:22 KJV Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Remember, continuing in the goodness of God did not mean doing something. It means being established into the BoC by Paul's my gospel! These Romans had never heard it! They were called to be saints (Romans 1:17 KJV).

:sigh: What a complete waste of time; to write over 300 pages and refrain from declaring the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

You format your answers in a way that makes it difficult to reply. It's unclear as to which question you are addressing in some of your responses.

I would agree that the "we" (Ephesians 1:12 KJV) is "Jews and gentiles", but it's more than that. Who then is the "ye" (Ephesians 1:13 KJV)? Are you saying that the two groups in the one Body is 1. Jews and 2. Gentiles?

The above is basically Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid confusion.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

How else can you see it? He says they are gentiles, they are called Jew, he is ready to share the gospel with them. What else is there?

More Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid confusion.

For these people - The Romans: whom Paul is PRIASING the faith of...

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Are NOT these people: whom Paul is CONDEMING the faith-LESSNESS of...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Which proves the conclusions of the above would be popes of Mid-Acts in their Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid confusion are actually based on their crystal clear POOR skills in the most BASIC of grammar.

Their every argument is that full of holes.

Holes very clearly resulting from their ever obvious breaking from the overall flow of the passages they assert their errors are based on, into their own ideas.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Danoh]

Let me try:

There were Gentiles in the "commonwealth of Israel" during Acts. Some were circumcised and became Jews , and some were uncircumcised.

These are the Gentiles Paul was sent to first. They were in the commonwealth of Israel and in the promise made to Abraham because they were with the Jews in the synagogue worshiping the God of Abraham.


LATER, Paul was sent to Gentiles who were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel". They were outside of the promise made to Abraham. In short, pagans.


This is what heir is showing you, waytogo.

Hybrid confusion.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

What part of Acts 22, specifically, shows that Paul was sent twice? I'm not seeing it.

You make the claim that v17-21 is the second, so where is the first?

:chuckle:

Because it is not there to see...

Well, unless one is so poor at basic reading comprehension that one ends up breaking from the overall narrative into one's own - as the Hybrid does.

So much for my having been the only one on here who saw the Hybrid's errors for what they are, let alone, said anything about it - to deaf ears.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

the calling\ first sending was enough .God said now

Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles,
unto whom now I send thee,

his calling was to be the "apostle of the Gentiles"
Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

the second sending as you like to call it was a "get out of dodge "
or you are going to get killed. better a prisoner than dead

Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
...
Act 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

Yep, it was basically just a reminder to Paul when he insisted on continuing to deal with Israel.

Not the first time in Acts that Paul goes against what he is instructed to do - for the sake of his beloved people...

Acts 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. 21:12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. 21:14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.

Notice - that was Acts 21 BEFORE he took off for Jerusalem.

He'd had no business returning there.

Why?

And THAT was what THIS that follows was ALSO about - a sometimes stubborn Paul's having to be REMINDED of Israel's fallen condition and what his commission was...

Acts 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

Second sending?

More like a second urging - to get on with what he had been called unto in Acts 9.

Not the ACTUAL, OVERALL flow of Paul's narrative - in light of that WARNING in the previous chapter coming to pass for his failure to heed it...in the very next chapter...

Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

Rom. 5:6-8.