Bob Enyart vs.Gary DeMar Debate

[Jerry Shugart]

On the "bob enyart LIVE" radio program there was a debate between Bob Enyart (dispensationalist) and Gary DeMar (preterist).

They discussed the following verses:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:30,34).

Of course Gary DeMar said that these verses were fulfilled in A.D.70 when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Bob Enyart said that Jesus thought that all these things will happen to that generation,but it didn't happen.

In other words,Jesus was wrong.

Any comments?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Servo]

It was a conditional prophecy. Israel as a nation did not repent so there were "cut off". God will finish His work with Israel sometime in the future, after the "fullness of the gentiles".

You have not heard this before?

 

[patman]

On the "bob enyart LIVE" radio program there was a debate between Bob Enyart (dispensationalist) and Gary DeMar (preterist).

They discussed the following verses:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:30,34).

Of course Gary DeMar said that these verses were fulfilled in A.D.70 when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Bob Enyart said that Jesus thought that all these things will happen to that generation,but it didn't happen.

In other words,Jesus was wrong.

Any comments?

In His grace,--Jerry

Wrong is such a heavy funny word, isn't it?

If I were to say a certain actor was in a movie, and 10 years later the movie was redone with a different actor, would I be wrong because what I said is no longer true?

Jesus made a statement that was true and right when he said it, but things changed, so they didn't happen...

hope that helps

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Jeremiah 18:9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

Jerry, would the above verse mean God was wrong when He told the nation He was going to bless them? Now knowing that later He relented of that blessing do to their disobedience? :think:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus made a statement that was true and right when he said it, but things changed, so they didn't happen...

hope that helps

Sorry,patman,but it doesn't help.

It was never true that the generation then living would be alive to see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.

After all,at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words the Father knew that the time when those things would be fulfilled would NOT be in the lifetime of the generation then living. The Lord Jesus said:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).

Did not the Father know at the time when the Lord Jesus spoke those words that the generation then living would not be alive to see the Son of Man coming on the clouds? Of course He knew. Therefore you are wrong when you say:

Jesus made a statement that was true and right when he said it...

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremiah 18:9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

Jerry, would the above verse mean God was wrong when He told the nation He was going to bless them? Now knowing that later He relented of that blessing do to their disobedience? :think:

Knight,

God knew that the generation then living would not be alive to see the Son of Man coming on a cloud. So if He told them that they would remain alive at the coming of the Son of Man then He would be lying to them.

Right?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God knew that the generation then living would not be alive to see the Son of Man coming on a cloud.

No, the plan was that Jesus return was eminent.

He meant what He said.

Yet Israel rejected their Messiah and therefore God cut-off Israel and grafted in the gentiles.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, the plan was that Jesus return was eminent.

How could His return be imminent,Knight?

The Father KNEW at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words that the generation then living would NOT be alive when the Son of Man returns.

We must part company with our common sense in order to believe that His return was imminent.

He meant what He said.

Yet Israel rejected their Messiah and therefore God cut-off Israel and grafted in the gentiles.

Yes,He meant what He said. He said that the generation who will see the signs in the sky will be the generation who will see Him return.

No please answer my question.God knew that the generation then living would not be alive to see the Son of Man coming on a cloud. So if He told them that they would remain alive at the coming of the Son of Man then He would be lying to them.

Right?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[patman]

Sorry,patman,but it doesn't help.

It was never true that the generation then living would be alive to see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.

After all,at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words the Father knew that the time when those things would be fulfilled would NOT be in the lifetime of the generation then living. The Lord Jesus said:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).

Did not the Father know at the time when the Lord Jesus spoke those words that the generation then living would not be alive to see the Son of Man coming on the clouds? Of course He knew. Therefore you are wrong when you say:


In His grace,--Jerry

No, God didn't know the things spoken by christ would change.

Daniel foretells in good detail that the end was supposed to happen 7 years after Christ fulfilled the law. Are you familiar with these verses?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, God didn't know the things spoken by christ would change.

So the Father didn't know the day and the hour when the Son would return?

The Father didn't know the things spoken of by the Son would change?

Then that means that the Son was wrong when He said the following:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).

According to your ideas the Son was wrong when He told the generation then living that they would remain alive to see Him returning and He was wrong when He said that the Father knew the time when He would return.

And the Father was wrong because He didn't know the things spoken by the Son would change.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[patman]

So the Father didn't know the day and the hour when the Son would return?

The Father didn't know the things spoken of by the Son would change?

Then that means that the Son was wrong when He said the following:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).

According to your ideas the Son was wrong when He told the generation then living that they would remain alive to see Him returning and He was wrong when He said that the Father knew the time when He would return.

And the Father was wrong because He didn't know the things spoken by the Son would change.

In His grace,--Jerry

Look at it this way, the future is open, God can change his mind, but it is up to him and only him. so he knows, and only he knows because he says "when."

Your settled predisposition makes you read this verse as though the day has an actual fixed day and time. No, it doesn't. It will happen when God is ready. God will even shorten those days - at his own decision, not because it is fate.

 

[Delmar]

How could His return be imminent,Knight?

The Father KNEW at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words that the generation then living would NOT be alive when the Son of Man returns.

Jeremiah 18
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Look at it this way, the future is open, God can change his mind, but it is up to him and only him. so he knows, and only he knows because he says "when."

Yes,the future is open. But as you say,the Father "knows" the time when the Son will return.

Your settled predisposition makes you read this verse as though the day has an actual fixed day and time. No, it doesn't.

You say that the following verse has nothing to do with any "actual fixed day and time":

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).

The Lortd Jesus said that the Father knows the day and hour when the Son will return but you say that the day does not have an actual fixed day and time!

How could the Father KNOW the day and hour if that time is still up in the air?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[billwald]

Maybe God has decided to let some random function pick the day.

If God is "reformed" then Jesus will return when the last elect person gets saved.

If God is "dispensational" then Jesus will return 40 years after the human fertility rate drops to zero because every person in every generation must be given the opportunity to accept or reject.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Maybe God has decided to let some random function pick the day.

No matter how the Lord decided to pick the day it is certain that He knew the "day and hour" when it would happen at the time when the Lord Jesus spoke the words concerning the return of the Son.

He knew the time when it would happen,so if He was telling the generation then living that they would remain alive when the Son returns then He would be telling them something which He knew was not true.

And the Lord would do no such thing.

There is a better explanation,but for some reason there are those who would rather give an answer that makes the Lord a liar.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[kmoney]

There is a better explanation....
In His grace,--Jerry

What exactly is your explanation of this? You stated what Gary and Bob believe, what do you believe?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

We must part company with our common sense in order to believe that His return was imminent.

Well then... I guess all the apostles and all the rest of Jesus followers had lost all common sense because they all believed and were in fact preparing for His quick return.

 

[Clete]

No matter how the Lord decided to pick the day it is certain that He knew the "day and hour" when it would happen at the time when the Lord Jesus spoke the words concerning the return of the Son.

He knew the time when it would happen,so if He was telling the generation then living that they would remain alive when the Son returns then He would be telling them something which He knew was not true.

And the Lord would do no such thing.

There is a better explanation,but for some reason there are those who would rather give an answer that makes the Lord a liar.

In His grace,--Jerry

Am I the only one here who can see the fact that Jerry here just blasphemed God?

The simple fact is that the things Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 did not come to pass. They didn't come to pass before the generation He was speaking too died nor have they come to pass at all!

So which is it Jerry? Is Jesus a liar or did He tell the complete truth when He uttered a conditional prophecy?

Was God lying when He spoke through Jonah saying "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed."?

Was God lying when He said that He would "without fail" drive out Israel's enemies from before them?

Please Jerry! Explain to us all how God is a liar. I want to hear what sort of convoluted lies you have to spew in order to put such words in our mouths. All we do is take the Bible at it word! You can't do that because by your own admission, with the post quoted above, doing so makes Jesus a liar. But if God can't be taken at His word then He's a liar anyway. You're a blasphemer either way Jerry. It sort of disturbs me how people let you just get away with it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[chatmaggot]

Jerry,

I think the point being missed is that prophecy is conditional. For example, suppose a dad told his kids that he was going to take them fishing this weekend. However, before the weekend arrives the kids do something really bad. As a result of their bad deeds the father then doesn't take his kids fishing.

Was the father lying when he said he was going to take them fishing when in fact he did not? NO. He changed his plan as a result of the actions of the kids.

So Jesus wasn't lying when He said that He was coming back soon. That was the plan. However, Israel rejected Jesus and God isn't fixed into doing something if the people turn wicked. As a result of their wickedness Jesus did not return...even though He said He was going to...and He wasn't lying.

The reason why we know He wasn't lying is because Jeremiah tells us that prophecy is conditional. God can have a plan to do something, even make that plan known, but then not do it as a result of the actions of man. God isn't fixed to do something and Jeremiah tells us why.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Please Jerry! Explain to us all how God is a liar. I want to hear what sort of convoluted lies you have to spew in order to put such words in our mouths.

Why Clete,so you can run and hide when you don't have an answer?

All we do is take the Bible at it word! You can't do that because by your own admission, with the post quoted above, doing so makes Jesus a liar. But if God can't be taken at His word then He's a liar anyway. You're a blasphemer either way Jerry. It sort of disturbs me how people let you just get away with it.

You have a zeal for God,Clete,but not according to knowledge.

I will explain this to you so that you can run and hide when you have no answer.

First of all,the Father KNEW the day and the hour when the Son will return.If you deny this then you are denying what the Lord Jesus said here:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).

Can you understand that,Clete? At the time when the Lord Jesus spoke the words about His return the Father knew the day and the hour when the Son would return.

And it is obvious that the generation then living would not remain alive to see His return.

You got that,Clete?

Next we can see that the Father was speaking through the Lord Jesus when the words were spoken about the return of the Son.On the day of Pentecost the Apostle Peter revealed that the Lord Jesus fulilled the following words of Moses:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you" (Acts 3:22).

Here is the OT prophecy that Peter was referring to:

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken…I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in His mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:15,18).

We can see that the Lord Jesus' words were not His own but instead were words which the Father put into His mouth. And if the Father was telling the generation then living that they would still be alive when the Lord Jesus returns then He would be telling them a lie. That is because He knew that they would not remain alive when the Lord Jesus returns:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).

Now it is time for you to run and hide,Clete.