Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

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D the Atheist

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This min-discussion started by my comments on Bob’s appraisal of the beach on the sand argument. It was brought about by Bob’s insistence that life could not form because of the odds against it mathematically. I have shown that I can not reach you mathematically either. Why is one wrong and the other not?

This part of the globe has time restrictions on Internet usage (Four hour lots) and mine is about to expire. May look in later…but then again…I may not.
 

One Eyed Jack

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To be honest Dave, I don't think you have a head for math. I linked to a page that showed the mathematical flaw in Zeno's paradox. Did you even read it?
 

D the Atheist

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OEJ, yes I do know of it and that it is obviously wrong. It is wrong in an equal amount to Bob’s mathematical proclamation that life could not have started because of the massive improbability (In his mind).

Without knowing the mathematical chances for life, how can one state the mathematical chances against it, except by fabulous invention? Bob’s mathematics are as suspect as Zeno’s paradox.

Life did start. This we know. It may be one in a billion to the nth chances that it did. But like a lottery, the first try may have worked or it may even be inevitable.

That it depended on mathematical probabilities or common chemical/energy interaction or something else is not at all clear and it is misrepresenting the unknown to state anything different.

Do you understand this?

I really must be of back into the real world.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by D the Atheist
OEJ, yes I do know of it and that it is obviously wrong.

Then why did you bring up something you knew to be mathematically flawed as a mathematical example? That's pretty dishonest, don't you think? I don't think you did know about the flaw, and you're just backpedalling to save face.

It is wrong in an equal amount to Bob’s mathematical proclamation that life could not have started because of the massive improbability (In his mind).

Without knowing the mathematical chances for life, how can one state the mathematical chances against it, except by fabulous invention? Bob’s mathematics are as suspect as Zeno’s paradox.

Zeno's paradox isn't mathematically suspect -- it's blatantly flawed. Bob, on the other hand, used to be a computer programmer -- it's a safe bet that he knows his math.

Life did start. This we know.

That doesn't mean it came about by natural means.

It may be one in a billion to the nth chances that it did. But like a lottery, the first try may have worked or it may even be inevitable.

In a lottery, some number is always going to be picked, but that number is going to be decidedly random. And there is nothing to show that life coming about may be inevitable -- this is merely wishful thinking on the part of the atheist.

That it depended on mathematical probabilities or common chemical/energy interaction or something else is not at all clear and it is misrepresenting the unknown to state anything different.

We're not saying life came about through the unknown. We're telling you God made it. You just don't like how it's been shown that the way atheists think it happened is so mathematically improbable as to be impossible.
 

D the Atheist

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Then why did you bring up something you knew to be mathematically flawed as a mathematical example? That's pretty dishonest, don't you think? I don't think you did know about the flaw, and you're just backpedalling to save face.

Yes…you are correct. I really did not think that I could reach you in a physical sense????????

Zeno's paradox isn't mathematically suspect -- it's blatantly flawed. Bob, on the other hand, used to be a computer programmer -- it's a safe bet that he knows his math.

This is a call to someone’s expertise. It is not a formula for getting at a correct statement.

That doesn't mean it came about by natural means.

And it certainly doesn’t mean that it didn’t.

In a lottery, some number is always going to be picked, but that number is going to be decidedly random. And there is nothing to show that life coming about may be inevitable -- this is merely wishful thinking on the part of the atheist.

That we are here shows opposite. It seems we are inevitable.

We're not saying life came about through the unknown. We're telling you God made it. You just don't like how it's been shown that the way atheists think it happened is so mathematically improbable as to be impossible.

Improbable is not the same as impossible….I say again….and again.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by D the Atheist
Yes…you are correct.

I know I am.

I really did not think that I could reach you in a physical sense????????

You're trying to use the old bait and switch here. That's not gonna work with me.

This is a call to someone’s expertise. It is not a formula for getting at a correct statement.

We're not talking about statements -- we're talking about models now.

And it certainly doesn’t mean that it didn’t.

Unless you can show us how it could, I see no reason to believe it can.

That we are here shows opposite. It seems we are inevitable.

Like I said -- wishful thinking.

Improbable is not the same as impossible….I say again….and again.

You can say it until you turn blue. We don't have an infinite universe to work in. It's just not gonna happen. The mathematical models show this.
 
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NATEDOG

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Hey Jack,
I have a question on the no animals eating other animals before the flood statement you made. You said that all the carnivorous animals could have survived off of grass. Maybe that's true, but having those teeth would sure make it difficult. Everybody knows sharp teeth aren't optimal for munching grass.
What about sharks? What kind of grass would they eat? Could a shark survive off of kelp? To me it seems obvious that some animals are designed to eat meat. What in the Bible leads you to believe that they weren't?
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by NATEDOG
Hey Jack,
I have a question on the no animals eating other animals before the flood statement you made. You said that all the carnivorous animals could have survived off of grass.

Where did I say that? I said vegetable matter. You're trying to erect a strawman here (no pun intended).

Maybe that's true, but having those teeth would sure make it difficult. Everybody knows sharp teeth aren't optimal for munching grass.

Panda bears have sharp teeth, and they eat bamboo -- a type of grass.

What about sharks? What kind of grass would they eat? Could a shark survive off of kelp?

Sharks can eat pretty much anything, and they don't chew their food anyway.

To me it seems obvious that some animals are designed to eat meat. What in the Bible leads you to believe that they weren't?

Genesis 1:29
 
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NATEDOG

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Where did I say that? I said vegetable matter. You're trying to erect a strawman here (no pun intended).

You know what I was talking about... "It's not meant to be taken literally, I was refering to vegetation in general."
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by NATEDOG
You know what I was talking about...

Which is why I answered your questions. But I also know what you were trying to imply, and I'm not going to let that slide. When you say I said something, you'd better get it right if you don't want to get called on it.

"It's not meant to be taken literally, I was refering to vegetation in general."

Are you quoting yourself here, or someone else?
 
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D the Atheist

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I’m starting to see how you operate. Interesting.

We're not talking about statements -- we're talking about models now.

No we were not. We, or you, that is, were stating how Bob has some expertise in the use of computers. This has nothing to do with models. He may model scenarios on the computer but you were only discussing his expertise. Let’s keep it truthful.

Unless you can show us how it could, I see no reason to believe it can.

I can live with uncertainty on the origins of life. You can’t and that is why you say a god did it. I do not have to prove anything to you. You have to put forward a hypothesis that can be investigated as to its worthiness by rational people. Maybe you can point me in the direction of a reputable secular journal where this has happened and widespread affirmation has occurred.

Like I said -- wishful thinking.

Do you mean it is wishful thinking that we are here? I know I am here. I rather think that it is wishful thinking in the extreme to suggest a god of unknown origin itself is the originator of life. This is extreme fantasy akin to attributing such a thing to the work of goblins.

You can say it until you turn blue. We don't have an infinite universe to work in. It's just not gonna happen. The mathematical models show this.

It is indeed encouraging that your knowledge of this non-infinite Universe has it all worked out. I can live with an understanding that encompasses a Universe that could be a part of something else, or entail something not yet or maybe never will be knowable. I do not know and you are fibbing if you say that you do.
 

attention

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Unless you can show us how it could, I see no reason to believe it can.

Like I said -- wishful thinking.

The reason to belief it can is because we know it did.

The fact that it is in YOUR mind (or anyone else's mind) impossible to conceive of the exact how and exact mechanism, does not mean that one should doubt that it happened in a certain plausible way.

The judgement or notion about the probability of a certain event, are not actually based on the process or mechanism itself, but are always based on the way and the level of knowledge we can have about this process.

In the case of a-biogenesis there is not very much we can know in detail. This means that our understanding will be very far from exact. It could be we never could find out for certain, besides a conceptual model of it.

The notion that something in our understanding is very improbably near to impossibile, does not mean that we can say it could have never happened in a natural way.


You can say it until you turn blue. We don't have an infinite universe to work in. It's just not gonna happen. The mathematical models show this.

The notion of the infinity of matter is posed on the fact that there is no begin of and end to matter. We can not conceive of a begin or end of matter, simply because a begin or end from/in nothing is neither a begin or an end. Nothing is only nothing.

Since you have the firm belief that matter does start or end somewhere, this just means that you resort on "supernatural" causes outside of matter. It is the very fact that you don't see the obvious fact that there can not be a start or end of matter from or in nothing that makes you belief that.

The "supernatural" in the way it is defined, means that it is only a subjective form of existence and can not denote an objective form of existence. But a subjective form of existence has no way of becoming or starting objective existence.
 

ex_fundy

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack Bob, on the other hand, used to be a computer programmer -- it's a safe bet that he knows his math.
Jack, I expect a little higher form of reasoning than this from you. The ol' Appeal to Authority Fallacy?
I've worked with and supervised "computer programmers" that barely made it through High School Algebra. How many upper-level probability and statistics courses did Bob take? Has he published in "Statistical Modelling" lately?
 

ex_fundy

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Theists Proof of God’s existence:
1) Complex life exists
2) Evolutionist cannot explain how those life forms came to be
3) Therefore there must be a designer
4) Conclusion: God exits

Rebuttal (continuation):
5) God is complex
6) Therefore God requires a designer
7) Conclusion: There must be an infinite regress of god-designers

Theists Reply
1) God is the exception
2) God is infinite
3) Finite man cannot explain an infinite God
4) I don’t have to abide by the same rules of evidence because God is on my side
5) Conclusion: God exists
 

attention

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Originally posted by ex_fundy
Theists Proof of God’s existence:
1) Complex life exists
2) Evolutionist cannot explain how those life forms came to be
3) Therefore there must be a designer
4) Conclusion: God exits

Rebuttal (continuation):
5) God is complex
6) Therefore God requires a designer
7) Conclusion: There must be an infinite regress of god-designers

Theists Reply
1) God is the exception
2) God is infinite
3) Finite man cannot explain an infinite God
4) I don’t have to abide by the same rules of evidence because God is on my side
5) Conclusion: God exists

Ex-Fundy:

Do you want me to debunk this? Or is this actual a confession that you still believe?

If they say God does not have to abide the same rules of evidence as they say applies to reality itself, then they claim that:

- Either God itself is no reality

or

- God IS a reality, but then so would what applies to God be applicable to reality itself also.

The whole problem is of course that in all our perceptions of reality, we only deal with the fact that we can only measure finite things.

All of reality itself can however not be finite, since that would make it necessary that reality started somehow.

All of reality itself then could have only started in or from nothing.
Since nothing is not a begin, this could not be the case. Nothing is only nothing.

Putting in there a Deity to "help" start all of reality is no help at all, since either it is the case that this Deity itself is a reality. Then we are doing something strange there since also this Deity was already included (by definition) in all of reality. Or God is not a reality. In that case it is not something. And nothing is not a begin of something.

Therefore all of reality itself can not have had a begin, and neither an end.
 

ex_fundy

New member
Originally posted by attention
Ex-Fundy:

Do you want me to debunk this? Or is this actual a confession that you still believe?
I wrote that to show the obvious foolishness of the basic arguement Bob keeps offering over and over. He confuses people with a slew of words, but the core of his arguement is captured in my few precise (and obviously illogical) statements.

As to my belief, I am still clinging to a form of theism, but Bob's insistence on repeating old already dealt with arguments isn't helping. His arguments sound great to people that already assume he's obviously right, but to a person like myself that's already read published counter arguments for what he writes they are not so convincing.
 

Corky the Cat

BANNED
Banned
Hi ex_fundy,

As to my belief, I am still clinging to a form of theism

I find that statement profoundly Intriguing. But then I have trouble understanding why, when nature is so gloriously strange in itself, one needs the concept of supernature at all.

But good luck :thumb:

Corky
 

ex_fundy

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Originally posted by Corky the Cat I find that statement profoundly Intriguing.
After one has been completely indoctrinated in a particular worldview for nearly 30 years (40+ if you count the general Christian mindset in which I was raised), it's not easy to completely throw it off overnight. It was hard enough being willing to face the loss of virtually all my friendships (once one leaves they are categorically labeled an evil backslider or tool of the devil :shocked: ).
 

ex_fundy

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Ark Capacity Preface

Ark Capacity Preface

Before starting my Ark calculations for Jack, I want to make the distinction between “possibility” and “probability”. A “possibility” is simply something we can imagine happening in our mind. For example, we could all imagine the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. It could happen! God could stop the Earth and reverse it’s rotational direction! It’s also possible that all the animals were teleported into their ark cages; required no food, water, or care; and hibernated motionless in a space barely large enough for their bodies. A probability (not Bob’s misused type) on the other hand is what is the most reasonable explanation based on observation, experimentation, and logic. It’s probable that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. After my post Jack will undoubtedly throw out a bunch of concocted explanations (“possibilities”) attempting to counter my analysis, but keep in mind the distinction between “possibilities” and “probabilities”.

Here are some (certainly not all and not necessarily mutually exclusive) of the big picture possibilities regarding the various flood myths (including Noah’s):

1) Many large-scale regional floods have occurred throughout human history. Memories of these events have been verbally passed down and altered through the centuries. This would fit the evidence of many widely varying flood myths and the well-known human technique of telling good stories (i.e. embellishment).

2) One global flood occurred, and it was just how Jack interprets it. All (or many of) the myths we hear come from that one event. Only 1 version remained accurate for the nearly1000 years (until Moses recorded it and then for another 1200+ years of copying until the oldest available manuscripts we now have) and the other numerous myths are simply gross distortions of the same event. 30,000 animals (sheep-sized on the average) survived in the ark for approximately a year.

3) The Noah story is but an ancient parable that never happened (similar to the numerous parables recorded in the Gospels that Christ used to teach). The story is in the Bible as a spiritual lesson and a prophecy for the coming Christ (who would rescue the world).

4) No flood ever occurred and all our memories were implanted into our brains 30 seconds ago.

Most would agree that option #4, while a possibility is not a probability. The other 3 options are not so easy to dismiss. The individual that wants to use reason vs. merely accepting dogma passed down for centuries, will look to observation and logic to determine the most probable explanation. Whereas, the individual that wants to cling to dogma, will concoct “possibilities” that will seem to support their credulously acquired dogma.

Rather than offering real evidence to the probability (or even feasibility) of option #2, all we get from YE’rs are a few books (who’s claims YE’rs forever repeat without any personal validation) that offer concocted “possibilities” for the slew of individual hurdles, but offer no full model that could deal with all the problems in a cohesive fashion. The best they seem able to do is to suggest that hurdle X could possibly have been handled with technique Y, and hurdle N could possibly have been handled with technique O (ignoring incompatibilities with techniques Y and O). There are just too many hurdles and not enough reasonable techniques suggested to handle them for option #2 above to move from the realm of “possibility” to “probability”. Whereas, both option #1 and #3 have almost no hurdles to explain and have both been reconciled with historic orthodox Christianity by various Christian Hebrew scholars. The sub-set of extreme literalist that Jack belongs too, simply ignore these reconciliations and cling to option #2.

If some Christian group built an actual physical ark (of Noah’s dimensions), stored food and water in it, loaded it with 30,000 sheep, and had 8 people care for those animals for 1 year, then I would grant some feasibility to the whole Noah story. It wouldn’t even matter to me if they used modern building technology (floatability would be a plus, but isn’t required), that would still be a significant step up the ladder toward believability. I’d even be impressed if someone built an actual 1/5th scale ark and cared for only 6,000 sheep (certainly there are many old abandoned barns that could inexpensively be retrofitted for this experiment). ICR alone (+$5M/annual income) or Answers in Genesis (+$9M/annual income) could finance this scaled down experiment. Unlike the YE’rs demand that evolutionist demonstrate the creation of life as it happened billions of years ago, this proposed experiment is very reasonable.
 

ex_fundy

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Ark Capacity

Ark Capacity

I am only going to deal with a few of the insurmountable hurdles surrounding the literalist interpretation of the Noah’s ark story. I won’t deal with construction problems, wooden boat size limitations, animal care challenges, geological problems, post-flood problems, or any of the other issues. I am going to focus on the space issues that arise from Jacks proposed 30,000 animals (average size of a Sheep – much smaller than the mean computed by none YE analysts http://members.cox.net/ardipithecus/evol/lies/lie027.html ).

http://www.agric.gov.ab.ca/livestock/sheep/sheepupdate/summ02i.html
This link discusses a sheep feedlot in Canada. It is 56 acres, 43,560 x 56 = 2.439 M ft^2, and has the capacity for 25,000 sheep. This area is the equivalent to 72.27 ark-sized decks (obviously not possible on the 45’ high ark). Unlike the ark situation, the food and water for these sheep is brought in from outside on a regular basis. When the lot is full they require up to14 people to handle the sheep for the “short period” that they are there, and they have all the advantages of modern technology to supply food, water, and waste transportation.

http://resource.lawlinks.com/Content/Legal_Research/US_code/Title_49/title_49_805.htm
US Code Title 49, Chapter 805 states that sheep must not be confined during transportation longer than 28 contiguous hours (an additional 8 hours is allowed if the 28 hour mark occurs in the night). They then must receive 5 hours for water, feeding and rest. Without this, many sheep would die in the extremely tight quarters used in rail transportation. Thus, it would have been necessary for the Ark to provide some exercise area (consuming additional floor space) as they couldn’t unload and reload the animals.

Dealing with raw volume is misleading and an oversimplification when approaching this issue. We are not talking about a cargo ship transporting inanimate objects packed tightly into easily stackable shipping containers, but an ancient wood boat transporting living animals. The animals obviously could not be packed into the ark like dominoes in a box. They required room to move and lie down. But for time-sake (optimizing horizontal space would be a logistic nightmare for even a modern architectural engineer) and to appease Jacks strong preference for dealing in volume, I’ll stick to volume.

Assuming an 18” cubit, the overall volume of the ark is 450’ x 75’ x 45’ =1.51875 M ft^3.

Access paths (walkways, stairs or ramps, etc.) large enough for the human caretakers to transport food, water, and waste to and from the animals would consume volume. I won’t bother with stairs or ramps, but I’ll reserve space for two 400’ walkways on each deck (though some YE models propose 3, or 4 walkways to simplify animal access). 3 (decks) x 2 (walkways) x 400’ x 8’ (height) x 6’ (width) = 115.2 K ft^3.

1.51875M – 115.2K = 1.40355 M ft^3

The enormous beams required for support would consume more volume. Some model constructions I found on YE sites suggest that the major framework would require upwards of 100 45-foot 2’x2’ beams for support. That consumes 18K ft^3. Reasonably the cross bracing would require another 9K ft^3. Then there are the 3 decks. Since 10” joists are common in modern houses that don’t support a lot of animal weight (and don’t float through turbulent global floods), it seems reasonable to have 18” thick decks. The 3 decks would then consume 3 x 450’ x 75’ x 1.5’ = 151.875 K ft^3. Summing these terms up gives 178.875 K ft^3 of available volume consumed by framework and decks.

1.40355 M – 178.875 K = 1.224675 M ft^3

Now I move on to the actual sheep. How many can actually fit in a “standard” rail car? Well, in “The Genesis Flood” Whitcomb and Morris pull the ol’ undefined term switch-a-roo. They quote from one source that says a double-decker rail boxcar (no dimensions given) can hold 240 sheep. Then they quote from a different source to show that the ark is as big as 522 boxcars (of the 9’x9’x33’ sized varieties). Hmm, I wonder if the first quote was actually referring to one of the 17’x9’x90’ sized varieties? We have a potential sheep carrying volume capacity error of 5-fold. I found one record of a major sheep transport rail station that averaged 90 sheep per boxcar, but again the boxcar dimensions weren’t given. I’m willing to give Whitcomb and Morris a break and go along with 120 sheep for each of those small (9x9x33) boxcars that they used for their volume. That would then produce 30K (sheep) / 120 (sheep per box car) x 2670 ft^3 (volume per boxcar) = 667.5 K ft^3

1.224675 M – 667.5 K = 557.175 K ft^3

Things are looking up for Jacks camp.

But wait, there’s more. Food and water are required. A sheep generally consumes about 4L water per day. 1L = 0.03531 ft^3.

30,000 (sheep) x 4L x 0.03531 (ft^3/L) x 365 (days) = 1.546578 M ft^3.

(oops – we can’t have that).
Let’s assume that they drank rainwater at first, but once the rain stopped and the millions of dead animals, dirt, and feces started floating around they’d have to drink from reserves. Let’s say they only stored a 182 day supply, nope that won’t work. How about a 90-day supply? Now we’re down to 0.25 x 1.546578 M = 386.644 K ft^2

557.175 K – 386.644 K = 170.530 K ft^3

Surely this is enough left over the human living quarters. Oops, I almost forgot the food.

An ewe requires about 0.3 tons of hay/year. A modern compacted 70 lb hay-bale is 14”x18”x35” (5.104 ft^3).

600 lbs x 5.104 ft^3 (bale) / 70 lbs (bale) = 43.748 ft^3
30,000 x 43.748 ft^3 = 1.312457 M ft^3

(oops again – another major hurdle)

Do we put them on ½ rations? No that’s not sufficient. OK, God made it so they only ate 1/10th the normal amount. That solves it. But now we only have 39,284 ft^3 for human quarters and their food. And what about the exercise areas I mentioned earlier and the need for ventilation tunnels sufficient to circulate to the lowest deck, the side walkways needed from each major walkway, the ramps/stairs between floors, etc.?

I’m sorry Jack, but the hurdles far outweigh the simple alternative. One could easily adhere to all the historic orthodox Christian doctrines and accept a regional flood interpretation. It would even be reasonable (yet I still disagree) to believe that God did in fact destroy all humans (except Noah & crew) and many animals in such a large regional flood. But your version is beyond believability. Floods occurred, various human embellishments got added to the stories about those floods, and we now have a bunch of myths. That is the probable explanation, and the one that most reasonably minded individuals will accept.

Well it’s been fun Jack, but I have real work to focus on for a while. Freeing the minds of those still held captive in fundamentalist dogma is only a part-time hobby. I truly wish for you the intellectual freedom that I have obtained. Though leaving fundamentalism is scary at first, once you experience the joy of free-thought you’ll be glad you did.
 
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