Ask Knight (Archived)

[Yorzhik]

Knight and Clete seem to be aserting that they grow up in heaven and get raised by God .
that's all i'm trying to pin down.

I think I'm on safe ground answering for Knight and Clete when I say, "consider it pinned"

That and an apperent contridiction that was made in a previos post by Knight

You mean after you've just demonstrated your understanding of what Knight said you cannot use what you apparently know to sort out the different contexts that resolves the contradiction? If this weren't the 'direct answer mode' thread I'd suggest that Knight ask you to post your thought process on figuring it out on your own.

 

[Freak]

That's the point Freak. "Like a little child". In faith. He is using the child here as an example of innocence, since the people at this time were still under the law.

You don't think people have to shrink down to child size and lose all their leg and underarm hair to enter heaven do you?

What did I post just a few posts ago?

I stated:

"In that context, of course, Jesus was speaking of the childlikeness of true faith."

And there is another possibility, God could have the children (those under 20) stay in Abraham's Bosom (in hell but with no suffering) until they mature and are allowed to make the choice.

No Scriptural evidence for this view. Many non-Christian sects hold a similiar view but a majority of believers would reject the notion that babies go to "hell" (with no suffering as you put it). There is no Biblical evidence that tells us babies are given an opportunity to mature, then decide to be justified after death.

Surely you don't believe, that after death, some humans will have the opportunity to be justified?

 

[fool]

What did I post just a few posts ago?

I stated:

"In that context, of course, Jesus was speaking of the childlikeness of true faith."

No Scriptural evidence for this view. Many non-Christian sects hold a similiar view but a majority of believers would reject the notion that babies go to "hell" (with no suffering as you put it). There is no Biblical evidence that tells us babies are given an opportunity to mature, then decide to be justified after death.

Surely you don't believe, that after death, some humans will have the opportunity to be justified?

It seems as though a huge segement of the population will

 

[fool]

Babies are matured and become a fully capable soul/spirit.

Then, these souls are judged by God. If you are judged and found not accountable for any sin you can make your eternal choice - to live with God or without Him. If you are found guilty and unrepentant you have already made your choice. Babies are not accountable for any sin therefore their matured soul will get to make an eternal choice at that point.

I guess what threw me was the fact that there is judgement in this paragraph and most Christians maintain that the only way is through Christ, hence no judgement other than if you believe in Christ or not. Also Christ is not mentioned in this paragraph at all so it seems as though somone could end up with the Father without going through the Son which puts a big hole in "no one comes to the Father but through me"

 

[Freak]

It seems as though a huge segement of the population will

 

[fool]

according to the formula they are positing
anyone under 20 gets to the Father, experience growth, and then have an option to remain or be damned
All without Christ

 

[Clete]

I guess what threw me was the fact that there is judgement in this paragraph and most Christians maintain that the only way is through Christ, hence no judgement other than if you believe in Christ or not. Also Christ is not mentioned in this paragraph at all so it seems as though somone could end up with the Father without going through the Son which puts a big hole in "no one comes to the Father but through me"

Christ still died to overcome the effects of Adam's sin. Even babies would be without hope if this were not the case. So regardless of whether babies are taken directly to heaven or whether they are matured first in order that they might make their own choice, either way it is only possible because of the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[fool]

Christ still died to overcome the effects of Adam's sin. Even babies would be without hope if this were not the case. So regardless of whether babies are taken directly to heaven or whether they are matured first in order that they might make their own choice, either way it is only possible because of the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

So this meathod is only available to post Christ children?
(and by children we seem to be talking about people under 20 )

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Christ still died to overcome the effects of Adam's sin. Even babies would be without hope if this were not the case. So regardless of whether babies are taken directly to heaven or whether they are matured first in order that they might make their own choice, either way it is only possible because of the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

:up:

Again, I agree with Clete.

Freak, I am not dogmatic about this view. I only see two reasonable possibilities.

1. Any person unable to make a earthly choice i.e., babies, mentally handicapped people etc. are taken directly to heaven.

2. Any person unable to make a earthly choice i.e., babies, mentally handicapped people etc. are made whole upon death and given the opportunity to make an eternal choice just like the rest of us.

It seems to me the second option makes a more sense and fits within God's MO.

But, personally this isn't an argument that I care to spend a great deal of time on although it is interesting.

 

[Freak]

:up:

Again, I agree with Clete.

Of course. We agree that the death of Christ provides the means for salvation.

Any person unable to make a earthly choice i.e., babies, mentally handicapped people etc. are made whole upon death and given the opportunity to make an eternal choice just like the rest of us.

There is no bilbical evidence that points us to believe this is true.

I can count a handful of non-Christian sects that believe it is possible to be justified after death but I know of no orthodox believer that would believe salvation is possible after death.

It seems to me the second option makes a more sense and fits within God's MO.
.

You think so? The Bible does not indicate that humans have a second chance upon death to receive salvation. It militates against Scripture.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I can count a handful of non-Christian sects that believe it is possible to be justified after death but I know of no orthodox believer that would believe salvation is possible after death.

Um... Freak... you believe that don't you???

You believe that babies are justified after death. At least that's what you have been saying on this thread. I believe that babies are NOT automatically justified but have the chance to make a matured decision in the afterlife.

Therefore, your belief about justification after death would be a tad more extreme than mine.

 

[Clete]

You think so? The Bible does not indicate that humans have a second chance upon death to receive salvation. It militates against Scripture.

It's not a second chance we are suggesting, it is a first chance. The whole point is that babies have not been given an opportunity to either choose or reject God and I, for one, do not believe that they will all necessarily want to stick around in heaven and God is not the sort of person to force them to stay. Thus I beleive that there will come a time when they will make their own choice.
As you say, there is not enough Biblical evidence for anyone to make a dogmatic assertion here. It is just a position born out of being familiar with God and the way He does things. It would be unjust to send babies to Hell and it would be impossible to love God if they could not possibly hate Him, and so this seems to be a good middle ground between the two positions which preserves the free will of the babies and the justice of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[fool]

:
2. Any person unable to make a earthly choice i.e., babies, mentally handicapped people etc. are made whole upon death and given the opportunity to make an eternal choice just like the rest of us.

It seems to me the second option makes a more sense and fits within God's MO.

But, personally this isn't an argument that I care to spend a great deal of time on although it is interesting.

OK
the part I'm having trouble with is the made whole part
How is an embryo made whole?
are they educated?
do they experience duration?
suffering?
how do they develop a personality without experience?
God could "mature" their cognitive ability but would they not just be an empty vessel?
it seems as though they would at least need to learn a language befor God could even talk to them

 

[Freak]

Um... Freak... you believe that don't you???

You believe that babies are justified after death. At least that's what you have been saying on this thread.

I stated:

David and Bathsheba’s first child died when it was only seven days old (2 Samuel 12:18). Before the child died, David cried, and did not eat any food. When the child died, David went to the temple to worship God. His servants questioned his actions. David said to them: "Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (1 Samuel 12:23). David knew that, even before the baby was born, that his child was precious to God and belonged to Him (read Psalm 139:13). They belong to Him!

Babies are right with God (justified) in the here and now not after death.

I believe that babies are NOT automatically justified but have the chance to make a matured decision in the afterlife.

Where is the Biblical warrant for such a view?

Therefore, your belief about justification after death would be a tad more extreme than mine.

In our day, believing Christ is the way of salvation is extreme. So, having an extreme view, in God's eyes, isn't that bad off.

Majority of Christian denominations that embrace the essentials would embrace the view that babies go to heaven.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

This text teaches us about the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. Just as Adam’s sin and condemnation have been imputed to all men, Christ’s righteousness is also imputed to certain people. Granted, we know that Christ’s righteousness is primarily granted to all who believe, but it may also be possible that God has chosen to impute the righteousness of Christ and the life that comes with that righteousness to all those who never reached a point where they could believe the Gospel. His righteousness could be imputed to those who never reach a point where they can be held accountable for their actions--i.e. babies.

 

[Freak]

It's not a second chance we are suggesting, it is a first chance.

Holding your view would have other serious theological implications. Christians do not believe choosing salvation is possible after death.

Thus I beleive that there will come a time when they will make their own choice.

Again where is the biblical justification for such a view?

I believe the spirit of babies have chosen their Creator.

David knew that, even before the baby was born, that his child was precious to God and belonged to Him (read Psalm 139:13). They belong to Him!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Freak, there are people who justify abortion using you view. How would you respond to that?

 

[Freak]

Freak, there are people who justify abortion using you view. How would you respond to that?

What view?

I do believe aborted babies go to heaven. Don't you?

 

[Freak]

May be time for one on one.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

OK
the part I'm having trouble with is the made whole part
How is an embryo made whole?
are they educated?
do they experience duration?
suffering?
how do they develop a personality without experience?
God could "mature" their cognitive ability but would they not just be an empty vessel?
it seems as though they would at least need to learn a language befor God could even talk to them

fool, when we die we do not take our flesh with us.

Upon death the soul is freed from the shortcomings of our physical bodies and therefore "matured" for lack of a better word.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

May be time for one on one.

Sorry, not interested.