ARCHIVE: Thread Theft (docrob and Knight)

[docrob57]

I felt compelled to respond to the following post in a current 1 on 1, and since I am not a participant, I will do it on this here thread. As to the open view and prophecy, Knight says -

Two main ways....

1. God predicts future events and then brings those events to pass.

2. God knows everything knowable (including human intention) and therefore can predict future events with a high degree of accuracy.

Knight's counter question...
If God ordains every event for all of time, OR if God has seen every event for all of time (prior to it happening) why would any prophecy ever not come to pass?

I was interested in point 1. This is a possibility, however, in order to act in this manner, it would seem to entail a considerable violation of free will. It would also entail the ability of God to correctly foresee the results of "bringing events to pass."

Armed with the right information, people can predict future events with a high degree of accuracy as well. There is no reason to think that God is so limited.

The examples given of "unfulfilled prophecies" are invalid. I know I'm wasting keystrokes here, as I have explained this many times, but for the new folks, I will proceed. The prophecies that are always set forth as examples are implicitly conditional in nature, taking the form "You are doing X, therefore I will do Y." Implicit is the statement "If you stop doing X, I will not do Y." Open view advocates even point to passages in Jeremiah which explain the conditional nature of this type of statement, apprently oblivious to the fact that the passage destroys their argument.

Jonah appears to be the favorite example. God said he would destroy Nineveh, Nineveh repented, and God did not destroy it. It is claimed that the prophesy was not fulfilled since Nineveh was not destroyed. The truth is that the only way the prophesy would go unfulfilled is if Nineveh had not repented and it was not destroyed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I felt compelled to respond to the following post in a current 1 on 1, and since I am not a participant, I will do it on this here thread. As to the open view and prophecy, Knight says -



I was interested in point 1. This is a possibility, however, in order to act in this manner, it would seem to entail a considerable violation of free will. It would also entail the ability of God to correctly foresee the results of "bringing events to pass."

Don't you yourself "bring events to pass" all the time in your life?

If you can do it without removing anyones freewill why can't God do it?

Jonah appears to be the favorite example. God said he would destroy Nineveh, Nineveh repented, and God did not destroy it. It is claimed that the prophesy was not fulfilled since Nineveh was not destroyed. The truth is that the only way the prophesy would go unfulfilled is if Nineveh had not repented and it was not destroyed.

:hammer:

Please tell us....

Was the following prophesy fullfilled? (YES or NO)

“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

 

[Lucky]

I was interested in point 1. This is a possibility, however, in order to act in this manner, it would seem to entail a considerable violation of free will.

There are ways of influencing people (in order to bring something to pass) without messing with their free will. For instance, I chopped down a tree that fell and blocked a road. Now I've stopped anyone from passing through there, but I didn't have to deny someone's free will to do so.

It would also entail the ability of God to correctly foresee the results of "bringing events to pass."

That process of overseeing it all would occur in the present, by an active, living God. And that doesn't go against the OV at all.

Armed with the right information, people can predict future events with a high degree of accuracy as well. There is no reason to think that God is so limited.

As opposed to saying God can only "predict" what he's already seen? Now that sounds like being limited.

 

[docrob57]

Don't you yourself "bring events to pass" all the time in your life?

If you can do it without removing anyones freewill why can't God do it?

:hammer:

Please tell us....

Was the following prophesy fullfilled? (YES or NO)

“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Yes, under the terms that I previously specified.

 

[docrob57]

There are ways of influencing people (in order to bring something to pass) without messing with their free will. For instance, I chopped down a tree that fell and blocked a road. Now I've stopped anyone from passing through there, but I didn't have to deny someone's free will to do so.

Of course you did. Think! Don't just react.

That process of overseeing it all would occur in the present, by an active, living God. And that doesn't go against the OV at all.

As opposed to saying God can only "predict" what he's already seen? Now that sounds like being limited.

The weatherman can predict, foreknowledge is a much more powerful tool than the ability to predict.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes, under the terms that I previously specified.

Nineveh was overthrown in 40 days?

What Bible are you reading?

 

[docrob57]

Nineveh was overthrown in 40 days?

What Bible are you reading?

You may kill me for saying this if you like, but you are tetering on the brink of intellectual dishonesty. You know quite well that in discussing these matters Bob Enyart likes to cite the following from Jeremiah 18:

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

This states quite clearly that prophecies such as that you quote are conditional, they will occur only in the absense of repentance. You either are incapable of understanding this, which I don't beleive to be true, or you simply don't want to see the implication here. The ONLY way God's prohesy through Jonah could be unfulfilled is if the people did not repent and they were not destroyed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

One way God can influence people is simply tell them to do as He wishes.

God told Jonah to go to Nineveh. Jonah didn't want to. God turned up the heat and finally Jonah went to Nineveh. None of this removed Jonah's freewill. Afterall.... if God was going to remove Jonah's freewill to get him to go to Nineveh couldn't He done so without the whole belly of the fish exercise?

Think about it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You may kill me for saying this if you like, but you are tetering on the brink of intellectual dishonesty. You know quite well that in discussing these matters Bob Enyart likes to cite the following from Jeremiah 18:

Of course! But so what????

Was Nineveh overthrown in 40 days or not?

Why wont you answer?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This states quite clearly that prophecies such as that you quote are conditional, they will occur only in the absense of repentance.

Do you believe the future is "conditional" for God?

 

[docrob57]

One way God can influence people is simply tell them to do as He wishes.

God told Jonah to go to Nineveh. Jonah didn't want to. God turned up the heat and finally Jonah went to Nineveh. None of this removed Jonah's freewill. Afterall.... if God was going to remove Jonah's freewill to get him to go to Nineveh couldn't He done so without the whole belly of the fish exercise?

Think about it.

That is a good point. Like I said, and even PM'd you, your first point in the 1 on 1 was interesting. I just don't know how God could not have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. I just makes no sense to me.

 

[docrob57]

Of course! But so what????

Was Nineveh overthrown in 40 days or not?

Why wont you answer?

I have answered. No it was not. This does not falsify the prophesy for reasons I have stated too many times already.

 

[docrob57]

Do you believe the future is "conditional" for God?

I seriously don't understand the question.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I just makes no sense to me.

Did ya ever think that is the way God want's it?

Maybe God didn't want a scripted future?

Maybe God wanted you to choose to love Him on your own freewill?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I seriously don't understand the question.

Is the future conditional for God?

In other words...
Are there things in the future (for God) that depend on other "yet to be determined" events?

Or....
Is the future completely settled and nothing is conditional upon anything else?

 

[docrob57]

Did ya ever think that is the way God want's it?

Maybe God didn't want a scripted future?

Maybe God wanted you to choose to love Him on your own freewill?

1. Did ya ever wonder why the open view is such a minority viewpoint?

2. Of course He didn't, not relevant, though I know you guys don't accept/understand that.

3. Of course He did, see 2 above.

 

[docrob57]

Is the future conditional for God?

In other words...
Are there things in the future (for God) that depend on other "yet to be determined" events?

Or....
Is the future completely settled and nothing is conditional upon anything else?

Good question, I am not sure.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

1. Did ya ever wonder why the open view is such a minority viewpoint?

Lots of truths are.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Good question, I am not sure.

Let me help you then....

If anything in the future is conditional then by definition the future cannot be settled.

That is why Jer 18 is utterly devestating to the settled view.

You do believe in a settled future.... do you not?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Jonah appears to be the favorite example. God said he would destroy Nineveh, Nineveh repented, and God did not destroy it. It is claimed that the prophesy was not fulfilled since Nineveh was not destroyed. The truth is that the only way the prophesy would go unfulfilled is if Nineveh had not repented and it was not destroyed.

1. Fulfilled means brought to pass
2. The prophecy was that Ninevah would be destroyed.
3. Ninevah was not destroyed
4. Therefore the prophecy was not fulfilled.

Now it seems that you are disputing point number 2. You seem to say that the prophecy was not only a explicit command, but also an implicit one. The problem is that something implicit is not part of the explicit. That is, the condition of God turning away from his declaration is not itself a part of the declaration. It is seperate and distinct. The one represents a principle of God (the implicit) whereby he repents when they repent. The other is a declaration of intent upon the people (the explicit). They are not the same thing and one is not contained in the other. Both are from God, but they are inherently seperate.

Thus, while the implicit was always there, it was not part of the explicit prophecy declared to Ninevah. Instead, the people relied (or hoped) on that principle (the implicit) to escape the explicit prophecy. The explicit prophecy therefore did not come to pass because of the principle of God (which was implicitly known).

It is therefore incorrect to say that the prophecy was fulfilled or came to pass.