ARCHIVE: The "anty"christ is killing us!

ChristisKing

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Freedom in Christ alone!

Freedom in Christ alone!

Mateo,

We all have the freedom to choose what we will do.

The issue here is that before regeneration we will always choose to sin and not obey Christ. We will do this because we want to, not because we are forced to. Therefore, Christ and the apostles said we were not free but instead slaves to sin and to Satan.

When we are regenerated our wills are set free and we will want to obey Christ. Sometimes we will obey Him and sometimes we will not. This is “true” free will.
 

Mateo

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hummmmmm

hummmmmm

Interesting,

On the one hand you argue that we have free will. In the next sentence you indicate that we will always choose to sin because it is our nature. This would appear to be tantamount to having no free will. I suppose this is no more incongruous a notion than the idea I put forth. As far a this spirit we now have beeing set free; if I'm reading the word right, we actually get new spirits to go along with new bodies. No?
 

ChristisKing

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The Holy Spirit Regenerates Where He Wishes!

The Holy Spirit Regenerates Where He Wishes!

Mateo,

I would love to claim credit for this idea but I can't. It's as old as Christianity and Christ even indicates that it is older than this.

JOH 3:6-11 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."
 

Clete

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Re: a third possiblility

Re: a third possiblility

Originally posted by Mateo
Gentlemen,

Do you think it's possible that both things could be true? We have free will and yet God, who is unencumbered by time, knows what choices we will make and has encorporated our future choices into a plan and purpose that predates the creation?

wondrin' out loud

The only problem I have with this is that it is not Biblical.
There is NO Biblical support at all for the idea that God is outside of time.
This idea is based on pagan Greek philosophy (Aristotle and Plato) not the Bible. It is derived logically from the presupposition that God is utterly immutable (incapable of change). Calvanism is based on this same foundation. And it is this unbiblical/pagan foundation that yields the self contradictory statements made so far in this thread. For example....

"The issue here is that before regeneration we will always choose to sin and not obey Christ. We will do this because we want to, not because we are forced to. Therefore, Christ and the apostles said we were not free but instead slaves to sin and to Satan."

What God predestined, he predestined IN CHRIST. Anytime predestination in talked about in scripture, the context is always "in Christ". So God, decided before hand that He would personally see to it that certain things would be made to happen by Him concering His Son. The Body of Christ will, for example, be glorified. God will personally see to it that this happens because He has predestined it. Those of us who are in the Body are therfore also destined for glory. Not because we were individually "elected" but because we are in Christ. Let me illistrate by making an analogy...

If you want to fly to Dallas aboard an American Airlines 747. You go to the airport, do what ever the owner of the plain requires for boarding, and you board the plain. At that point you are destined for Dallas! Not because the owner of American Airlines singled you out and determined that you personally were going to be on that plain. But, because he predetermined, in advance that that plane was going to go to Dallas (something he had control over) and then you decided to board that plain (something you had control over)...see you in Dallas! :)

Similarly, if we want to go to heaven (to be saved) then we "get on board" the Body of Christ! Once we are "on board" the Body(something we are in control over) then we are taking the trip because God had predeterminded that the Body will be glorified (something He has control over)!... See you in heaven! :)
 
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ChristisKing

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Cop-Out!

Cop-Out!

Clete- "What God predestined, he predestined IN CHRIST. Anytime predestination in talked about in scripture, the context is always "in Christ". So God, decided before hand that He would personally see to it that certain things would be made to happen by Him concering His Son."

ChristisKing- That is a cop-out in an attempt to avoid the numerous clear scripture verses revealing our election.

ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1PE 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All these verses speak to the predestination of Christians!

Christ was predestined and so were we!
 

Mateo

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Clete sayeth:

There is NO Biblical support at all for the idea that God is outside of time?


But Mateo is reading...

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not was, am.


Clete says:

Similarly, if we want to go to heaven (to be saved) then we "get on board" the Body of Christ! Once we are "on board" the Body(something we are in control over) then we are taking the trip because God had predeterminded that the Body will be glorified (something he has control over)!... See you in heaven!


And Mateo's thinkin':

I've only read one passage in Rev 6 and 7 that put any concious man or women in heaven for any period of time and only then for a "short" time (3 1/2 years to be exact but that's another thread all together). Everything else I'm reading points to earth as being mankinds' "long home". The meek shall inherit...?
 

Clete

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Originally posted by Mateo
Clete sayeth:

There is NO Biblical support at all for the idea that God is outside of time?


But Mateo is reading...

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not was, am.

Perhaps I should have said that there is no real biblical evidence! I forget that people have an uncanny ability to apply scripture that has nothing to do with a particular subject and use it as some stunning proof text.
Jesus was claiming to be God here, nothing more, nothing less. He was not making commentary about the nature of time, or whether or not He was in or outside of it! All those around Him understood instantly that He was making reference to one of God's names and that He was applying that name to Himself and thereby claiming to be God. To apply this scripture the way you do, is to ignore the context entirely and without a predisposition to this way of thinking such a connection would never be made. In other words a "God outside of time" theology could not be logically derived from this text. You have to already be a Calvanist before this says anything Calvanistic to you.




And Mateo's thinkin':

I've only read one passage in Rev 6 and 7 that put any concious man or women in heaven for any period of time and only then for a "short" time (3 1/2 years to be exact but that's another thread all together). Everything else I'm reading points to earth as being mankinds' "long home". The meek shall inherit...?

You're right; that is another thread. That's why I put "to be saved" in parentheses. I anticipated that someone could object to the use of the idea of going to heaven (of all things). The use of that particular language fit well with the analogy I was making and didn't damage the point being made.

Seated with Him (in the heavenly places)!,
Clete
 
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Mateo

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Beloved Clete,

Having come to embrace the word of God outside of a denominational setting, and having had no other formal religious indoctrination, I am regretably ignorant of the tenates of "Calvinism" and so am unable to make any sort of informed reply to your assertion that I am somehow in allegiance with his doctrine, whatever that may be.

Concerning the rest of your missive, I can only say that we are truly blessed that God has deigned to leave us at least one mouthpiece in this otherwise clueless generation.
 

ChristisKing

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Clete vs. The Word of God

Clete vs. The Word of God

Clete says,

"It is derived logically from the presuposition that God is utterly immutable (incapable of change). Calvanism is based on this same foundation. And it is this unbiblical/pagan foundation that yields the self contradictory statements made so far in this thread. "

But the Holy Spirit says,

HEB 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

MAL 3:6 "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
 

Clete

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Re: Clete vs. The Word of God

Re: Clete vs. The Word of God

Originally posted by ChristisKing

But the Holy Spirit says,

HEB 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

MAL 3:6 "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Yes, speaking in terms of God's personality, or in terms of WHO God is, He does not change. He is always, loving, just, kind, etc.
Calvanists go another step further than this though. Calvinism teaches that God is UTTERLY imutable. That is, He CANNOT change in any way whatsoever. He can not get angry after having first been grieved, or He can not have a new thought, etc.
C.S. Lewis even said that "God can not be moved by love." (I think that he said this in his book "Miracles", but it may also have been in "The Problem of Pain" I can't remember for sure which.)
This teaching not only goes beyond the teaching of scripture but it goes against it...

The Bible teaches...
1. God became man. John 1:14 Was God always man?
2. God died. John 19:30 Was God always dead?
3. God rose from the dead. John 20:11-17 Is God still in the grave?

These are all REAL changes. To deny this is to deny the Gospel itself! And yet Calvanism IS based exclusively on the foundation of the immutablilty of God. The entire theological system is derived from it.
 
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ChristisKing

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He is, was and will be!

He is, was and will be!

Clete,

God does not change. God was God when He took on flesh. He was 100% God and 100% man, this is a great mystery. But God never changed. He was, is and will always be. He is the great I am.

REV 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Also don't forget, Christ was slain before creation.

REV 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Mateo

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Clete:

I am not an Arminian!


Mateo:

I am not a Calvinist!


Elephant Man:

I am not an animal!


How about let's quit calling each other names?
 
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Clete

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Re: He is, was and will be!

Re: He is, was and will be!

Originally posted by ChristisKing
Clete,

God does not change. God was God when He took on flesh. He was 100% God and 100% man, this is a great mystery. But God never changed. He was, is and will always be. He is the great I am.

This is a typical self contradictory statement made by Calvanists. You say that God does not change, then in the explanation of that statement (the VERY NEXT sentence) you say God TOOK ON flesh. Which is by definition a change! Then a second explanitory sentence stating that He (God) was both God and man. Well, this wasn't always true! Was it? Or are you suggesting that a man created mankind?
You ignore my point about the death of God (Jesus). Is God dead now? Or did He rise from the dead?

REV 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

This verse teaches that God has always existed (which is not in dispute). It references the past, the present, and the future, all of which make sense only within the context of time. This verse is evidence that God exist inside of time, not outside if it.


Also don't forget, Christ was slain before creation.

So you do admit that God was slain... interesting! Was this before, during, or after He was resurrected? Or is He still dead now?

REV 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God intended from the beginning to provide a sacrifice to redeem mankind. He had this planned from before creation. This verse refers to what God had decided to do from the beginning. Its a common way of speaking, a figure of speech! There is nothing in the verse itself, that leads you to think anything about a God that exists outside of time! Again, this verse only speaks Calvanism if you are a Calvanist as you read it.


Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Clete

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Originally posted by Mateo
Clete:

I am not an Arminian!


Mateo:

I am not a Calvinist!


Elephant Man:

I am not an animal!


How about let's quit calling each other names?

First let me say that this is a very clever post! I enjoy interacting with witty, clever-minded people. Its very refreshing!:thumb:

I said that I am not an Arminian because it had been strongly implied that I was. Since I do not believe that one can lose their salvation, as the Arminians do, I'm excluded.

Are you not a Calvanist? If not, GOOD!

Calvanism has penetrated the Body of Christ to the point that nearly all Christians accept many of its precepts without understanding that it originates in Pagan/Greek philosphy.

I will try not to refer to you personally as a Calvanist but for ease of conversation I will still use "Calvanist" to refer to a person who holds the beliefs so far discussed in this thread, and "Calvanism" to refer to those beliefs themselves.


God bless you (and the Elephant Man!;) ),
Clete
 
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Mateo

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I suppose what I was trying to suggest is that most of us tend to define and relate to others our beliefs as they relate to some "ism" of the day. We also tend to measure others by this yardstick as well. It is probably only natural that we, that most impatient of God's creations, tend to want to save time and verbage by pidgeon holing those with whom we deal with as quickly as possible. A sort of mental shorthand, if you will. Saves time. Problem with using this approach is that it leaves one without the tools necessary to understand or effectively deal with someone or something which operates outside this paradigm.

I'm fond of saying there are as many religions as there are people. Like fingeprints and snowflakes we Christians each are a little different, one from another, and yet are all similar in a larger, more important way.

I would not even consider myself a protestant. Mr. Luther, though responsible for much long overdue repair work on the shared Christian dogma of his day, was, at the end of the day, a Catholic and brought forward into his doctrinal creation numerous Catholic innovations that I am disinclined to embrace.

I suppose I could take the time to work up some sort of statement of the faith of Mateo to save everyone the time necessary to discover what my beliefs are so they might more accurately address them but, as I am continually learning and adjusting my beliefs to accomodate this process such an effort would have a limited shelf life and usefulness I would think.

If ya gotta stick a label on me how about "Aspiring Christian; A Work In Progress".

In the love of the Lord,

Mateo
 
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ChristisKing

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Calvism is the Gospel!

Calvism is the Gospel!

Clete,

I don't know who you arguing with or what point you are even making anymore. lol! But I will tell you this, Calvinism is simply the pure gospel. It has infiltrated the body of Christ because it is the gospel in it's purest form.

As Mateo stated, the word calvinism is just a verbal short-cut to describe a particular belief. The Calvinistic beliefs are as old as the New Testament. They simply state:

We are born in sin and totally depraved. There is no good in us until we are regenerated.

We are saved unconditionally by the grace of God. He didn't save us because of any good found in us.

Christ died for His people.

When God calls us to Christ, we will come.

Once we are saved, we are always saved.

Paul was a Calvinist before there was Calvinism, so was Christ and all the apostles. You better watch out Clete, you may be a Calvinist too!
 
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Clete

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Mateo,

The attitude expressed in your last post is commendable and is an attitude well suited to people who spend a lot of time on this site. There is much to learn here. The problem with many however is that they don't come here to learn but to preach. One who is an honest debater must be willing to be convinced that he is wrong, or at least not as right as he thought he was.
I do have a question for you...

You said "I'm fond of saying there are as many religions as there are people. Like fingeprints and snowflakes we Christians each are a little different, one from another, and yet are all similar in a larger, more important way."

Do you think that there is a correct belief system? Or are most people right? And, on what should a persons belief system be judged by (how do we, or can we tell for sure who's right and who's not)?
 
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Clete

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Re: Calvism is the Gospel!

Re: Calvism is the Gospel!

Originally posted by ChristisKing
Clete,

I don't know who you arguing with or what point you are even making anymore. lol! But I will tell you this, Calvinism is simply the pure gospel. It has infiltrated the body of Christ because it is the gospel in it's purest form.

I'm arguing with you! (debating I think is a better word, we haven't gotten personal yet, so to say we were "arguing" might be an overstatment :) )
My primary point in debating this Calvinism issue is that you have a problem with wackos that kill their kids (as do I). You blame Arminian theology, but as a Calvinist, you have no ground to stand on because you own belief system says that Arminians are Arminian because God made them that way! Your problem is with God, not Arminius.

And as to the rest of your post...

I know very well what the five points of Calvinism are. We can debate them one at a time if you like. But my position is that they are all founded upon the "immutability" of God and they will fall apart if this foundation crumbles.

You have nothing with which to substanciate that anyone prior to Augustine was at all "Calvinistic" in the church, least of all Jesus Christ! It has been said the Calvin got his Calvinism from Augustine. Care to guess who Augustine got it from? I'll give you a hint... Aristotle and Plato!

And finally, I used to be a Calvinist. Not anymore! :D

God Bless you!
Clete
 
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Mateo

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Past experience has taught me how easy it is to slip into acrimony when discussing one's beliefs. There is little more foundational or more sensative to our sense of being than our beliefs. Some of us have much thicker hides than other as well. To avoid unnecessary rancor, and in to answer your question "Is there a correct belief system" I offer you the following scripture:

1Cor13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

We see now as through a glass darkly. I have on numerous occasions been tempted to have this one sentence tatooted on my forehead. Yes, there is a correct belief system and safe to say if Paul didn't know it the way he should none of the rest of us does either. We are told to seek it but we are also told that we won't lay hands on it in this life but we should look forward to it when Jesus returns to vest us with new spirits and bodies. Paul has penned an oft quoted passage in 1Cor13 on this same subject and he finishes his thought the same way he did in the passage above. No matter how much scriptural knowlege we acquire, if we don't have love, we're just one more fool banging on a tin cup making so much unprofitable noise.

Another canidate on my forehead ornamentation list is this one:

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak,

I have begun to exchange posts with a very studious, thoughtful and curious Messianic Jew whose response to my posts are positively glacial in comparison to what I normally see in Bible forum postings. Her answers bear witness to the time she had spent considering what I had said before she formed a reply. We would all do well to emulate she.

And last but not least:

Prov 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Even in the written medium we tend to read the first few sentences, form an opion of what the person is trying to say and then form a response to that which we imagine they were going to say. Not good...


and then there's me...

Ecce 5:3 ...a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
 
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Clete

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Originally posted by Mateo
Past experience has taught me how easy it is to slip into acrimony when discussing one's beliefs. There is little more foundational or more sensative to our sense of being than our beliefs. Some of us have much thicker hides than other as well.

Even in the written medium we tend to read the first few sentences, form an opion of what the person is trying to say and then form a response to that which we imagine they were going to say. Not good...

I must say that I agree with your entire post. These two statements cought my eye in particular though. I have noticed that people are very emotionally attached to the things they've been taught. They seem to emotionally attach the issues to the person who taught them. The more they love that individual the less likely they are to ever part with the things learned from them. This holds true even if one is self taught. Its a loyalty thing, I think, but more unconscious than that.
In any case it's a strong part of our flesh that should be resisted at all times. Truth is truth. And while we can not know everything, we can know right from wrong and the more we get to know Him, the easier that gets.

God bless you my brother in Christ!

Clete
 
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