ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

themuzicman

Well-known member
:doh: Comprehension problem? The case has been made by many others beside me. :think: about it. I don't agree with you. Stop whining and get over it. :chuckle:

Who's whining? I'm simply pointing out that this isn't a "Nature of God" issue.

Your assumption. What does it take for you to understand that I said I don't agree with you about Open Theism?

I understand that. If that's all you want to say, then say it and go away. If you want to have a discussion about OVT, then engage.

Or are you claiming to be inerrant in your theology?
Muz

:idea: Sez you.:crackup:

That does appear to be your claim. Are you saying that it is?

Muz
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Who's whining? I'm simply pointing out that this isn't a "Nature of God" issue.

And I'm pointing out that you are wrong It is a nature of God issue.
God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This is has been and is the basis of Judaism and Christianity.
1. Open theism teaches that God has granted freewill to mankind and that future freewill choices of men cannot be known ahead of time by God thus denying the omniscience of God.
2. Open Theism claims that God changes his mind and does not have infallible knowledge of the future. This is a direct challenge to the accuracy of biblical prophecy. If He did not know the future why is it that the true prophet was required to be 100% correct. What was the penalty if he wasn't.
3. Open Theism claims that the power of men's prayers can move God. Do men bring God into line with their words of power? What happened to not my will but thine be done?

And you are trying to tell me that Open theism is not about the nature of God and who He is? :vomit:

I understand that. If that's all you want to say, then say it and go away. If you want to have a discussion about OVT, then engage.

No need to engage or debate. I don't know everything, but I know a counterfeit when I see it.


That does appear to be your claim. Are you saying that it is?

Muz
No, if that is the impression you got my apologies. I meant that I don't question the nature of God. You do in the area pointed out above. Have a blessed day.

Raven
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
And you continue to divert attention from your deficiencies.

Muz, Muz, Muz, here is what you are doing:

You are ignoring the many prophecies that were fulfilled. You are clinging to one little detail that was not confirmed in the NT, and therefore dismissing the entire prophecy of Psalm 22. Again, just because one detail of the prophecy from the OT is not given in the NT does not mean that the prophecy was not fulfilled. You cannot prove a negative!

Plus, you are dismissing the details that are beyond a shadow of doubt as “just poetry”

So, I will keep giving you more prophecies. I’ll skip Psalms, since you will claim “just poetry”.

Let’s go back to the crucifixion again:

(John 19:31) The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

This was a special time of year for the Jews because several sabbaths were observed nearly one after another. The first of the seven days of Unleavened Bread was also the Passover day (the Jews measured their days from sundown to sundown instead of from midnight to midnight). We also know that Christ died on a Wednesday, not on the traditional Good Friday. Thus, from approximately six o’clock Tuesday evening until approximately six o’clock Wednesday evening was celebrated the Feast of the Passover.

The Passover lamb was slain, and the memorial meal was eaten on what we call Tuesday night. This was the “preparation” for Wednesday, which was the actual Passover day. As the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, this Wednesday, described in John 19:31, was also designated as the preparation day for the rest of the week-long observance .

This was why the Jews “besought Pilate that their legs might be broken.” It was the Roman custom to leave a body nailed to the cross until the flesh rotted away. They liked to make a lasting impression. But Jewish law demanded that the body of any criminal be put out of sight during a sabbath or feast day in order not to pollute the land (Deut. 21:22- 23).

Breaking the legs was a Roman technique which consisted of shattering the leg bones with a heavy mallet in order to expedite the death of those being crucified.

(John 19:32) Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

The Roman soldiers went up to the two thieves, one on each side of Jesus, and in order to be able to take them down by nightfall, they pounded their legs until the bones were crushed. Thrown into deeper shock and suddenly unable to force themselves up to relieve pressure, they died of suffocation.

(John 19:33) But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

This is simply evidence of the fact that Christ was physically dead. The soldiers on the execution detail that day saw that he was “dead already.” The fact that the soldiers did not break His legs is a fulfillment of specific promises contained in the OT Scriptures.

(Exodus 12:46) In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

(Num 9:12) They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

(John 19:36-37)For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

And for good measure Muz, we will throw in some poetry: (Psalm 34:20) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

So Muz, explain to all of us non-open theists how the above OT scripture was able to be written hundreds of years before the cross, and yet play out exactly as written.

P.S. I only used one verse from Psalms, so you will have to do better than “just poetry”
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Who's whining? I'm simply pointing out that this isn't a "Nature of God" issue.

And I'm pointing out that you are wrong It is a nature of God issue.
God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This is has been and is the basis of Judaism and Christianity.
1. Open theism teaches that God has granted freewill to mankind and that future freewill choices of men cannot be known ahead of time by God thus denying the omniscience of God.

Incorrect. OVT says that God know all things, but says that the future free will decisions of men is not logically a part of "all things" similar to how knowledge of a square circle is not logically a part of "all things."

So, the real question is whether the nature of creation is such that the future is logically knowable, not whether God is omniscient.

(Unless, of course, you wish to argue that God's exhaustive and definite foreknowledge is necessary, that's another discussion.)

2. Open Theism claims that God changes his mind and does not have infallible knowledge of the future. This is a direct challenge to the accuracy of biblical prophecy. If He did not know the future why is it that the true prophet was required to be 100% correct. What was the penalty if he wasn't.

Why is it that EDF is necessary for God to fulfill prophecy?

3. Open Theism claims that the power of men's prayers can move God. Do men bring God into line with their words of power? What happened to not my will but thine be done?

It would seem that the classical view has a greater problem, here. If the future is already fixed, there's no point to prayer.

God is not called into line by men, but men truly make decisions to obey or disobey God apart from His control in OVT. And only apart from EDF is this truly possible.

And you are trying to tell me that Open theism is not about the nature of God and who He is? :vomit:

Yes. You misunderstand the real issues.

I understand that. If that's all you want to say, then say it and go away. If you want to have a discussion about OVT, then engage.

No need to engage or debate. I don't know everything, but I know a counterfeit when I see it.

Funny, you believe one.

That does appear to be your claim. Are you saying that it is?

Muz
No, if that is the impression you got my apologies. I meant that I don't question the nature of God. You do in the area pointed out above. Have a blessed day.

So, you admit that you sin in your theology as well?

Muz
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Muz, Muz, Muz, here is what you are doing:

You are ignoring the many prophecies that were fulfilled. You are clinging to one little detail that was not confirmed in the NT, and therefore dismissing the entire prophecy of Psalm 22. Again, just because one detail of the prophecy from the OT is not given in the NT does not mean that the prophecy was not fulfilled. You cannot prove a negative!

Plus, you are dismissing the details that are beyond a shadow of doubt as “just poetry”

So, I will keep giving you more prophecies. I’ll skip Psalms, since you will claim “just poetry”.

Let’s go back to the crucifixion again:

(John 19:31) The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

This was a special time of year for the Jews because several sabbaths were observed nearly one after another. The first of the seven days of Unleavened Bread was also the Passover day (the Jews measured their days from sundown to sundown instead of from midnight to midnight). We also know that Christ died on a Wednesday, not on the traditional Good Friday. Thus, from approximately six o’clock Tuesday evening until approximately six o’clock Wednesday evening was celebrated the Feast of the Passover.

The Passover lamb was slain, and the memorial meal was eaten on what we call Tuesday night. This was the “preparation” for Wednesday, which was the actual Passover day. As the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, this Wednesday, described in John 19:31, was also designated as the preparation day for the rest of the week-long observance .

This was why the Jews “besought Pilate that their legs might be broken.” It was the Roman custom to leave a body nailed to the cross until the flesh rotted away. They liked to make a lasting impression. But Jewish law demanded that the body of any criminal be put out of sight during a sabbath or feast day in order not to pollute the land (Deut. 21:22- 23).

Breaking the legs was a Roman technique which consisted of shattering the leg bones with a heavy mallet in order to expedite the death of those being crucified.

(John 19:32) Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

The Roman soldiers went up to the two thieves, one on each side of Jesus, and in order to be able to take them down by nightfall, they pounded their legs until the bones were crushed. Thrown into deeper shock and suddenly unable to force themselves up to relieve pressure, they died of suffocation.

(John 19:33) But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

This is simply evidence of the fact that Christ was physically dead. The soldiers on the execution detail that day saw that he was “dead already.” The fact that the soldiers did not break His legs is a fulfillment of specific promises contained in the OT Scriptures.

(Exodus 12:46) In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

(Num 9:12) They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

(John 19:36-37)For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

And for good measure Muz, we will throw in some poetry: (Psalm 34:20) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

So Muz, explain to all of us non-open theists how the above OT scripture was able to be written hundreds of years before the cross, and yet play out exactly as written.

P.S. I only used one verse from Psalms, so you will have to do better than “just poetry”

It's simple, really. Did Jesus die because He lacked the strength to live, or did Jesus willfully give up His spirit?

Muz
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Properly understood, Open Theism does not deny omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, but understands the concepts biblically vs with Platonic philosophical influence.

"As omnipotence is limited by the possible, so omniscience is limited by the knowable...we do not limit omnipotence by denying its power to do impossible or self-contradictory things. Neither do we limit omniscience by denying its power to foreknow unknowable things."

"If an act be free, it must be contingent. If contingent, it may or may not happen, or it may be one of many possibles (issue of creation, not attributes). And if it may be one of many possibles, it must be uncertain; and if uncertain, it must be unknowable."

"A certain event will inevitably come to pass, a necessary event must come to pass, but a contingent event may or may not come to pass. Contingency is an equal possibility of being and of not being."

Logically and biblically, EDF and libertarian free will are incompatible. In a deterministic view (denies true free will), EDF would be possible (but then God becomes responsible for evil, contrary to His character). An omnicausal view gives EDF, but compromises love and holiness, more explicit revelation.

Pinnock: Aspects of the future, being unsettled, are not yet wholly known, even to God. It does not mean that God is ignorant of something He ought to know, but that many things in the future are only possible and not yet actual. Therefore, he knows them correctly as possible and not actual.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
It's simple, really. Did Jesus die because He lacked the strength to live, or did Jesus willfully give up His spirit?

Doesn't answer the questions, but here is my reply to your question:
His birth was unique. His life was unique. His spiritual death was unique, and now, even His physical death was unique in that He was the only Person ever to dismiss His own life when His assignment was complete. By an act of His own volition His soul and human spirit left His body, and only then was He physically dead.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Roger Olson, Arminian, rejects OVT (in response to Sander's view):

It certainly seems at times that the biblical narrative portrays God as facing a partly unsettled and uncertain (even to him) future.

And I agree with 19th century Arminian theologian John Miley who said that dynamic omniscience would not undermine any vital Arminian doctrine (would it be that Calvinists had this insight and charity). In fact, I would go so far as to say that I cannot see how it undermines any Christian doctrine. In my opinion, the furor over open theism among conservative evangelical theologians (often strident Calvinists, thought strident critic Bruce Ware shares some of our views on time vs eternity and is kind to Sanders and the discussions they wage) has been OVER THE TOP; it borders on HYSTERIA, especially since to doctrine of the Christian faith is denied or undermined by it.


This coming from someone who knows the issues on all sides better than the TOL amateurs. This is why they are mature, seasoned scholars and men of God, unlike some of us here who lack critical thinking ability, lack a working knowledge of all the issues, etc.

He goes on to say that he welcomes Open Theism into the Christian theological conversation (totally disagrees with it though) as it is being presented humbly and as a theologoumenon- a hypothesis to be tested and NOT a new dogma to be adopted by everyone willy-nilly.

The arrogant Calvinists are politically shutting down dialogue and may be resisting a reformational movement in church history initiated by the Spirit of God, not spawned by Satan (not first time Calvinists have missed the Spirit and resisted spiritual awakening of the lost and revival of the church).
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Pinnock: Aspects of the future, being unsettled, are not yet wholly known, even to God. It does not mean that God is ignorant of something He ought to know, but that many things in the future are only possible and not yet actual. Therefore, he knows them correctly as possible and not actual.

You guys have been brainwashed by "PBS" (Pinnock, Boyd, and Sanders)
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Doesn't answer the questions, but here is my reply to your question:

IT does answer the question. The basis for breaking the legs was the removal of the bodies after death (to speed up death.)

However, before this came about, Jesus willingly gave up His Spirit.

Thus, we see God (in Christ) acting, without the need for EDF, to fulfill prophecy.

OVT fits this just fine.

Muz
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
IT does answer the question. The basis for breaking the legs was the removal of the bodies after death (to speed up death.)

However, before this came about, Jesus willingly gave up His Spirit.

Thus, we see God (in Christ) acting, without the need for EDF, to fulfill prophecy.

OVT fits this just fine.

Muz


:bang:


(John 19:34) But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.


(Zechariah 12:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

(John 19:37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

You just don't get it :noway:
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
:bang:


(John 19:34) But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.


(Zechariah 12:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

(John 19:37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

You just don't get it :noway:

What you miss is that if you're going to call Psalm 22 a prophecy, all of it has to be fulfilled and reported. You can't do that.

The question is whether these are actual prophecies, or simply typologies similar to how Matthew uses Hosea in Matt 2.

Muz

Muz
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
What you miss is that if you're going to call Psalm 22 a prophecy, all of it has to be fulfilled and reported. You can't do that.

"and reported"? Says who.

The question is whether these are actual prophecies, or simply typologies.....

typologies? I have to admit, I was expecting something from you to trump “just poetry”, but you outdid yourself with "typologies".

I thought a typology was something like Jonah and the wale prefiguring Christ's burial, the stomach of the fish being Christ's tomb, and as Jonah was freed from the whale after three days, this shows Christ rising from His tomb after three days?

How is the verse in Zec. a typology for the verse in John. It's word for word.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
"and reported"? Says who.

Says anyone who would believe you. You can't read Psalm 22 and say that it is fulfilled prophecy, unless you've shown that it was actually and completely fulfilled.

typologies? I have to admit, I was expecting something from you to trump “just poetry”, but you outdid yourself with "typologies".

Are you serious? Read Matthew 2:15. That comes from Hosea 11:1. Go read Hosea 11:1. You'll find that there is no sense in which Hosea is a prophecy of the Messiah. None. Yet, Matthew says that this is a "fulfillment."

What Matthew is saying is that one event is like another in some way.

I thought a typology was something like Jonah and the wale prefiguring Christ's burial, the stomach of the fish being Christ's tomb, and as Jonah was freed from the whale after three days, this shows Christ rising from His tomb after three days?

Something like that, but it works in many prophetic settings

How is the verse in Zec. a typology for the verse in John. It's word for word.

Did you read the surrounding text of Zech?

11 On that day dthe mourning in Jerusalem will be as great eas the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land shall mourn, feach family1 by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.​

Where is this? This is part of the Zech prophecy.

Muz
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Are you serious? Read Matthew 2:15. That comes from Hosea 11:1. Go read Hosea 11:1. You'll find that there is no sense in which Hosea is a prophecy of the Messiah. None. Yet, Matthew says that this is a "fulfillment."

Interesting post by Nang on these verses (my emphasis)
Originally Posted by Nang
Throughout the major prophets, one should read "Israel" and "Judah" both literally and figuratively, seeking revelation of Christ in all prophecy.

However, the best example I can give you of this, is the prophecy found in Hosea 11:1, where it is written:

"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My Son."
This is literal, historical fact, and it is to be spiritually understood, also, that the prophet spoke of Jesus Christ, for the Scripture interprets itself, saying:

". . An angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, 'Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.' When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying 'Out of Egypt I called My Son.'" Matthew 2:13-15

Nang is a Calvinist and a Covenatalist, which I am neither, but she makes an interesting point. Just thought I would throw this in.

OK, I concede that Hosea 11:1 and Matt 2:15 is probably a typology. And Matt 12:40 probably is too.

(Matt 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The only “problem” I have is that it is not stated in Matt 12:40 that Jonah and the whale was prophecy as it does in Matt 2:15, so maybe they both are not typologies (meaning that only one is a typology), and maybe Matt 2:15 is prophecy. ?????

Anyway, you make a good point for the Zechariah verse being a typology also. I concede this as a typology too.

However, I still disagree with you on Psalm 22. Here I see no typology, and I disagree with you that 100% of it has to be “reported” in order for it to be a prophecy.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Incorrect. OVT says that God know all things, but says that the future free will decisions of men is not logically a part of "all things" similar to how knowledge of a square circle is not logically a part of "all things."

So, the real question is whether the nature of creation is such that the future is logically knowable, not whether God is omniscient.

(Unless, of course, you wish to argue that God's exhaustive and definite foreknowledge is necessary, that's another discussion.)


future/foreknowledge? Interesting thought. The logic you're using is human logic. What makes you think that God cannot know human will?

Why is it that EDF is necessary for God to fulfill prophecy?

What is prophecy? Are you going to say that God cannot know human will but can fulfil all future prophecy?

It would seem that the classical view has a greater problem, here. If the future is already fixed, there's no point to prayer.

Why? I do not know if my prayers will be answered. Do you? Luke 22:42

God is not called into line by men, but men truly make decisions to obey or disobey God apart from His control in OVT. And only apart from EDF is this truly possible.

What makes you think those who do not adhere to OVT cannot make decisions to obey or disobey God? :duh:

Yes. You misunderstand the real issues.

:nono: You're OVT adherent.

Funny, you believe one.

:crackup: Nice try. :chuckle:

So, you admit that you sin in your theology as well?

Irrelevant. You didn't address what I said. You don't sin in yours?
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
The only “problem” I have is that it is not stated in Matt 12:40 that Jonah and the whale was prophecy as it does in Matt 2:15, so maybe they both are not typologies (meaning that only one is a typology), and maybe Matt 2:15 is prophecy. ?????

The common view is that when Matthew (and the gospel writers) use "fulfill", they mean that Christ is following the pattern of Israel, but fulfilling its destiny, rather than failing.

Anyway, you make a good point for the Zechariah verse being a typology also. I concede this as a typology too.

However, I still disagree with you on Psalm 22. Here I see no typology, and I disagree with you that 100% of it has to be “reported” in order for it to be a prophecy.

Then I would like to know how you avoid the accusation (and likely probability, given the nature of crucifixion vis a vis emaciation and all of ones bones being out of joint) that the prophecy wasn't completely fulfilled, given that the other details of this Psalm are reported.

Muz
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Psalms 22
7: All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
8: He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.


Matthew 27
41: Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42: He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43: He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
S2P, it's a simple question:

Where is the evidence that all of Jesus' bones were put out of joint, and that he was emaciated? Yes, there are things in Psalm 22 that are paralleled in Jesus' life. Yes, Psalm 22 is a messianic Psalm. But that's all we can say.

Muz
 
Top