ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[godrulz]

Excellent!

Only a person who assigns to God humanistic thinking would view God's omnipotence as not really possessing all power, but as something limited to finite thought processes. To do so is to claim our thoughts are God's thoughts.

Using your guys logic, God can make rocks too heavy to lift.

Do you really believe God can change the fixed past?! Give me some mechanism how this could even be possible. Saying God is omnipotent does not cut it unless you also believe in square circles, female males, black oranges, 2+2=4 and 5 at the same time.:noid:

 

[DFT_Dave]

:rotfl:

I don't agree. I believe logically, that God has the power to remake any past event if He so chose. He could easily wipe Abraham Lincoln from ever being any kind of impact on our history and minds without us even knowing about it. His power demands the ability. What we'd then have is an illusion of time, nothing that stops God from going one way or the other. You should be able to comprehend that time is no factor where God is concerned by pure omnipotence alone. It is only logical to assume He is beyond limits of time.

Time is sequence, this before that, future and past. If God, as you say, can change the past, then you are saying that God made it this way, "Lincoln has impact on history", then changed his mind and made it that way, "Lincoln has no impact on history". This would be sequence--time, and change in God.

Now you and Mister Religion are OVer's, welcome to the club! :cheers:

--Dave

 

[Lon]

I give up. Trust me. The past is fixed. Even an omnipotent, omniscient God cannot change it.

You really need to give up on square circles and married bachelors.

You are smart, yet dull, at times.

I can't trust you on this. I already told you, it is logical that omnipotence can easily, with no effort at all, change what has happened in the past. There isn't much to do really, reach into His creation and erase our memories, recreate our books, remove the grave marker and the past is obliterated. Being Creator of all, He has more power than you imagine here (and me for that matter).

Hi GR, Meet my other friend, Dave.

:rotfl:

Time is sequence, this before that, future and past. If God, as you say, can change the past, then you are saying that God made it this way, "Lincoln has impact on history", then changed his mind and made it that way, "Lincoln has no impact on history". This would be sequence--time, and change in God.

Now you and Mister Religion are OVer's, welcome to the club! :cheers:

--Dave

Sure, haven't I been saying all along we are more on page than we are often portrayed? Mischaracterization is where you tend to disagree with us. As I've pondered, "Why in the world would a believer raised in a good church, become an OT?" , I have to wonder if they had Sunday School there, if it was heavily attended etc. etc.
As I ponder, I suspect they didn't explain things very well or the OVer was passing notes or something, I dunno. It is just real pondering and questioning on my part. I just don't understand how OV started.

 

[Lon]

Using your guys logic, God can make rocks too heavy to lift.

Do you really believe God can change the fixed past?! Give me some mechanism how this could even be possible. Saying God is omnipotent does not cut it unless you also believe in square circles, female males, black oranges, 2+2=4 and 5 at the same time.:noid:

Done and in a logical manner that you should be able to acquiesce.

 

[godrulz]

So, our reality unfolds. I actually exist and live my life. This is recorded in pictures, film, history, etc. My life interacts with a myriad of other lives, etc. In your speculative view, God is only wiping us all out so we do not have memory of our existence or the past. We are essentially in a Matrix illusion and God is deceiving us. He is not actually changing the past or the reality of our lives, just our personal perception of it by killing us or brainwashing us?!

I think the chinks in your armor or showing. Let us know when you see the light and say 'eureka'. We will have an OVT party for you.

I tried to kick against the goads, but finally admitted my traditional views were defective. It was painful for a moment, but pleasurable for decades. Truth sets free and I am sure we all want to accurately represent God and His ways.

Leave the dark side, Luke.:noid: I will use Jedi mind tricks on you: Open Theism is true. Calvinism/determinism is not. Repeat after me and I will give you food and sleep back...:mrt:

 

[DFT_Dave]

I can't trust you on this. I already told you, it is logical that omnipotence can easily, with no effort at all, change what has happened in the past. There isn't much to do really, reach into His creation and erase our memories, recreate our books, remove the grave marker and the past is obliterated. Being Creator of all, He has more power than you imagine here (and me for that matter).

This is about the stupidest remark I have ever seen here. How can we take you seriously after this? I don't think you even got my point. You would be logically inferring there is time in God, and a change of mind if he could "change the past", and, though not obvious to you, that would mean he is neither timeless nor immutable. Past activity, neither our's nor God's, exists as a "thing" that can be changed.

--Dave

 

[Lon]

This is about the stupidest remark I have ever seen here. How can we take you seriously after this? I don't think you even got my point. You would be logically inferring there is time in God, and a change of mind if he could "change the past", and, though not obvious to you, that would mean he is neither timeless nor immutable. Past activity, neither our's nor God's, exists as a "thing" that can be changed.

--Dave

Yes, your 'stupid' comment is observed. It is often, when the right thing is said, that the name-calling starts. I find it rather complaining and perplexity on another's part rather than an intelligent address. They seem idle words to me. If it is stupid, show, not tell, please. That's why I never type 'stupid.' If I can't show it that way, I'm the one with the need for re-education or out of my league.

Now please pay attention to my redress to GR.

 

[Lon]

So, our reality unfolds. I actually exist and live my life. This is recorded in pictures, film, history, etc. My life interacts with a myriad of other lives, etc. In your speculative view, God is only wiping us all out so we do not have memory of our existence or the past. We are essentially in a Matrix illusion and God is deceiving us. He is not actually changing the past or the reality of our lives, just our personal perception of it by killing us or brainwashing us?!

I think the chinks in your armor or showing. Let us know when you see the light and say 'eureka'. We will have an OVT party for you.

I tried to kick against the goads, but finally admitted my traditional views were defective. It was painful for a moment, but pleasurable for decades. Truth sets free and I am sure we all want to accurately represent God and His ways.

Leave the dark side, Luke.:noid: I will use Jedi mind tricks on you: Open Theism is true. Calvinism/determinism is not. Repeat after me and I will give you food and sleep back...:mrt:

No, created things are real but my point is that it is just that, 'a created thing.' As I've said, sheer power logically demands that whatever God has made He can unmake. It matters not at all that the new reality would somehow be illusion to you. It wouldn't matter because it would be your reality with the other 'poof' gone. You'd be clueless as to it being one way or the other. If Andrew Gorbenstein had become the first Jewish President of the United States, you wouldn't know. The past would be changed. Does God do this? No, I don't think so, but the point is that He can, and easily. He doesn't, I believe, because things progress exactly as He has allowed. He doesn't make mistakes, so there is no need to do this. Regardless of 'how' the past is changed, it is still a change and He obviously can do it (stupid indeed DF_Dave). All this to say, I totally disagree that time is any kind of factor upon God. He can go back if He so desires, again, omnipotence screams that He can. It is actually anti-intellectual not to acquiesce the point. I understand the argument between would vs could. I don't think you guys do, at least not at this point. I don't believe He would but beyond a doubt believe He could, and easily.

Now I've given you "the mechanism" for yet a second time of "how it could even be possible."

It is more than obvious that time is no barrier at all in any sort, way, or fashion, to God.

 

[godrulz]

If God saw my existence for the last 48 years, He would know this as true and real. If He killed me by His power so I had no recollection and changed all past history (sci fi movies as incoherent as your view), it would not change the truth of God knowing my existence. My subjective perception would be gone, but the reality in God's mind would still exist even if He ceased to make me exist. God cannot change the fixed past. That would make his 48 years of personal knowledge of my life a false belief. You can destroy memory and records of man, but it would not change the fact that God observed this reality. He cannot erase His omniscient memory banks to make the past different than it was. If I existed for 20 years, He cannot go back and wipe out those 20 years in reality. This is absurd and illogical and not even proposed by eternal now types like you.

Can someone explain this better? 'Back to the Future' or 'Minority Report' are fiction, not within biblical parameters.

Some of your arguments are worth considering, but this one is out to lunch (even by the standard of most who hold timeless views).

Is there any documented evidence of God changing the past? No. The future is fundamentally different and God and man can make the possible future unfold in more than one way. God could have wiped out Satan, but He did not. If He did, the Bible and the future would be different than it will be now. God and man can change the future, experience the present, but the past is logically fixed (in both of our views). In your view, God eternally knows the past, present, future as a fixed simultaneity. He cannot change the past or the future, because that would make His foreknowledge flawed. Simple foreknowledge offers no providential benefit. Determinism comes at a high price of making God responsible for evil and negating the personality (image of God) of man.

Give me a Christmas present. Become an Open Theist, pulease.:juggle:

 

[DFT_Dave]

No, created things are real but my point is that it is just that, 'a created thing.' As I've said, sheer power logically demands that whatever God has made He can unmake. It matters not at all that the new reality would somehow be illusion to you. It wouldn't matter because it would be your reality with the other 'poof' gone. You'd be clueless as to it being one way or the other. If Andrew Gorbenstein had become the first Jewish President of the United States, you wouldn't know. The past would be changed. Does God do this? No, I don't think so, but the point is that He can, and easily. He doesn't, I believe, because things progress exactly as He has allowed. He doesn't make mistakes, so there is no need to do this. Regardless of 'how' the past is changed, it is still a change and He obviously can do it (stupid indeed DF_Dave). All this to say, I totally disagree that time is any kind of factor upon God. He can go back if He so desires, again, omnipotence screams that He can. It is actually anti-intellectual not to acquiesce the point. I understand the argument between would vs could. I don't think you guys do, at least not at this point. I don't believe He would but beyond a doubt believe He could, and easily.

Now I've given you "the mechanism" for yet a second time of "how it could even be possible."

It is more than obvious that time is no barrier at all in any sort, way, or fashion, to God.

Back To The Future?
God cannot go forward nor back to what does not exist. Time and historical events are not the same thing. Unless there an invisible reality where everything that ever will happen, has already happened. Are you saying there is such a reality?

I did not say you were stupid; the idea that the past can be changed is nonsense, which of course, you didn't originate.

--Dave

 

[Lon]

If God saw my existence for the last 48 years, He would know this as true and real. If He killed me by His power so I had no recollection and changed all past history (sci fi movies as incoherent as your view), it would not change the truth of God knowing my existence. My subjective perception would be gone, but the reality in God's mind would still exist even if He ceased to make me exist. God cannot change the fixed past. That would make his 48 years of personal knowledge of my life a false belief. You can destroy memory and records of man, but it would not change the fact that God observed this reality. He cannot erase His omniscient memory banks to make the past different than it was. If I existed for 20 years, He cannot go back and wipe out those 20 years in reality. This is absurd and illogical and not even proposed by eternal now types like you.

Can someone explain this better? 'Back to the Future' or 'Minority Report' are fiction, not within biblical parameters.

Some of your arguments are worth considering, but this one is out to lunch (even by the standard of most who hold timeless views).

Is there any documented evidence of God changing the past? No. The future is fundamentally different and God and man can make the possible future unfold in more than one way. God could have wiped out Satan, but He did not. If He did, the Bible and the future would be different than it will be now. God and man can change the future, experience the present, but the past is logically fixed (in both of our views). In your view, God eternally knows the past, present, future as a fixed simultaneity. He cannot change the past or the future, because that would make His foreknowledge flawed. Simple foreknowledge offers no providential benefit. Determinism comes at a high price of making God responsible for evil and negating the personality (image of God) of man.

Give me a Christmas present. Become an Open Theist, pulease.:juggle:

I would certainly become one if it made sense and was right. That's what is stopping me though.
I agree God would know of your existences but we are both on the same page on this though you tend to be alone on your side with it. God does not forget. I think Muz also agrees with you, may be a few others. I'd be interested in both Bob's takes on this point too. It seems an important correction point to me because you and Muz have this part right. All that being said,
Why is it you say this is sci-fi?
An obliterated reality stops being so. I suppose we could say the Abraham's are still with us. Perhaps a particle here in your body, perhaps another in mine, and the rest in the ocean or ancestors of worms and bugs. I don't know. I think I'm on page more with you here than you are with me. I mean I understand and agree with this particular point but the fact that God can make a reality or remake it is possible, not just fiction. Why don't you even see the possibiltiy here? This is a bit beyond my comprehension of you. I know He doesn't and we are talking about theoreticals. As I've stated, He doesn't make mistakes so doesn't need to do redo's. That isn't my problem, my problem is that I can't understand why you don't acquiesce this as more than plausible other than the objection that He wouldn't? Again, this is about ability rather than doing. I just don't see it far fetched at all. It seems completely within reason to assume by sheer power He can do what I suggest. I mean, even with my limited imagination I can work through it logically and it is doable without much effort. Shoot, if we decided as a nation to erase Clinton from the books after his death, we could all probably do it. Our children would have a different past than us. Granted it is fabricated, but it would be a reality for them. Englebert Humperdink would take his place.

 

[godrulz]

The past is fixed/ memory. The future is possible/imagination. Only the present moment is actual/real.

Surely presentism vs eternalism (A vs B theory of time) is the common sense view and how we actually live because it resonates with reality. There is no reason to think God must be timeless just because He is not a man. Divine temporality is perfectly comprehensible and biblical. It is consistent with His nature as a personal, dynamic vs static being.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Posted by eveningsky339

Sorry I did mean Augustine... And the point being that you gave the impression that Augustine was struggling to work out a synthesis between Biblical and Greek philosophy because Biblical philosophy is obviously different than the Platonic view of time. But I would argue that this is not the case; Augustine was stating his view of time in light of what he was taught all his life.

Regardless, the Bible literally written does not depict God as timeless.

Yes, God created the world. Natural selection does not contradict this, it simply explains how the world progressed after God created it.

Oh, and in what book, chapter, and verses do we see the Bible expain how everything evolved?

Natural selection/evolution is the backbone of modern medicine and genetics, so be thankful that most anti-evolutionists aren't doctors. Otherwise they would be prescribing old medicines for diseases which have since evolved.

General science is the backbone of modern medicine and genetics. The theory of evolution is an attempt to explain how this world came into existence; it does not explain how to treat cancer, etc.

Actually I disagree with Augustine on the "timeless" concept of God. Rather, God exists along an infinite number of timelines, each intersecting our own single timeline at an infinite number of points. So, God is present now, future now, and past now. Not only can God enter our timeline, but He already exists inside and outside of it.

His name says it all: I AM.

God does not say "I am timeless", and the Bible does not say there are are an infinite number of timelines nor an infinite number of worlds.

Certainly. Einstein stated that as an object approaches the speed of light, time for that object slows down. So I could take a year-long trip at light speed and come back to earth, and I would have only aged a year, whereas 50 years would have passed on earth.

There is no way you could take a trip for a year at light speed and live. A year is a measure of time on earth and not anywhere else.

Which brings us to an interesting experiment. We can't very well put an atomic clock at light speed to measure how time slows down, but we can certainly try. Not too long ago scientists had two atomic clocks, accurate to one billionth of a second. One clock was left on the ground, one was put in a supersonic jet and flown in the air for as long as humanly possible.

I guess I don't need to tell you which clock was slower. If time slows down as an object approaches the speed of light, then that proves that time is very much a part of this universe.

The question is, is time a part of God, not is time a part of the universe. It looks like you see time as a thing, as an it, that God can enter in and out of, but that would be history not time; and neither history past nor future exists as something that can be entered accept in movies.

--Dave

 

[Lon]

The past is fixed/ memory. The future is possible/imagination. Only the present moment is actua/real.

Surely presentism vs eternalism (A vs B theory of time) is the common sense view and how we actually live because it resonates with reality. There is no reason to think God must be timeless just because He is not a man. Divine temporality is perfectly comprehensible and biblical. It is consistent with His nature as a personal, dynamic vs static being.

I think this goes back to the would vs. could discussion. I don't think He would, I'm saying it is more than plausible that He is able. Because He is 'just' able, it isn't a logical obstruction to view God as being relational to us in time, yet it is no bind upon Him.

Of course this becomes difficult with the future. Mere ants do not affect my future at all and are inconsequential to my being. I don't mean to shoot us too far down the animal kingdom chain to be 'nothings' that isn't my intent. My point is that free-will of created beings is not as important as I think you deem it. Whatever God says and God decrees are of exponentially significant proportions in my mind. I'm not sure our big hang-up here is of any necessary ramifications EXCEPT as we consider His revelation to us about Himself and what He knows. I've always, even from a young age, believed God knew my future. I'd always read Ps 139 that way. I am trying to show plausibility without the sci-fi rigormorole in response.

 

[godrulz]

Ps. 139 demonstrates intimate past and present knowledge. It also shows God's intentions/desires for us, but should not be proof texted for EDF or the blueprint model of sovereignty (it is also poetic, not didactic...though it contains truth).

 

[Evoken]

God cannot change the fixed past.

...the idea that the past can be changed is nonsense, which of course, you didn't originate.

Well, at least we can agree about something.

"For this alone is lacking even to God, To make undone things that have once been done." (Aristotle, Ethics VI:2)


Evo

 

[JCWR]

"For this alone is lacking even to God, To make undone things that have once been done."

Those darn Greeks!

 

[Lon]

Well, at least we can agree about something.

"For this alone is lacking even to God, To make undone things that have once been done." (Aristotle, Ethics VI:2)


Evo

Of course I do not agree. "Would" no. "Could?" Absolutely. We are creation. Anything in creation "can" be undone. This is like saying God doesn't have the power to make you forget there was an Abraham Lincoln. I, not only think, but am convinced this is not beyond His ability. It is almost like saying that my clay pitcher cannot be squashed just because it is already made. Even if fired, it can be crushed to powder and with the right additions remade. He created everything, absolutely He could redo any of it. Don't make the mistake that He wouldn't, with this I also agree, my point is that He is omnipotent and I'm surprised at even Augustine here.

 

[Evoken]

Of course I do not agree. "Would" no. "Could?" Absolutely. We are creation. Anything in creation "can" be undone. This is like saying God doesn't have the power to make you forget there was an Abraham Lincoln. I, not only think, but am convinced this is not beyond His ability. It is almost like saying that my clay pitcher cannot be squashed just because it is already made. Even if fired, it can be crushed to powder and with the right additions remade. He created everything, absolutely He could redo any of it. Don't make the mistake that He wouldn't, with this I also agree, my point is that He is omnipotent and I'm surprised at even Augustine here.

Hi Lon

While the quote from Aristotle may be taken to mean that God cannot undo something that exists at present, what is in view is not the thing as it exists now but as it was in the past. This God cannot undo. The thing as it exists now we both agree can be taken out of existence, but nonetheless it remains true that it existed.

Thus, Augustine writing Against Faustus (Book XXVI, 5) states:

“Accordingly, to say, if God is almighty, let Him make what has been done to be undone, is in fact to say, if God is almighty, let Him make a thing to be in the same sense both true and false. [...] But when a thing does not exist, the existence cannot be put a stop to. Now, what is past no longer exists and whatever has an existence which can be put an end to cannot be past. What is truly past is no longer present; and the truth of its past existence is in our judgment, not in the thing itself which no longer exists. The proposition asserting anything to be past is true when the thing no longer exists. God cannot make such a proposition false, because He cannot contradict the truth.

The truth in this case, or the true judgment, is first of all in our own mind, when we know and give expression to it. But should it disappear from our minds by our forgetting it, it would still remain as truth. It will always be true that the past thing which is no longer present had an existence; and the truth of its past existence after it has stopped is the same as the truth of its future existence before it began to be. This truth cannot be contradicted by God...”

Doing so would imply a contradiction, it would entail that a thing existed and didn’t exist at the same point in time, which is impossible. But as Aquinas says “there does not fall under the scope of God's omnipotence anything that implies a contradiction” (ST I, q.25 a.4), so God cannot make the past to not have been.

Hope that clears things up a little bit. I'll have to side with the open theists (godrulz and DFT_Dave) on this one, sorry!


Evo

 

[DFT_Dave]

Back To The Future?

God cannot go forward nor backward to what does not exist. Time and historical events are not the same thing. Unless there is an invisible reality where everything that ever will happen, has already happened.

Is there such a reality?

--Dave