ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Ask Mr. Religion

Ask Mr. Religion

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godrulz said:
There is a difference between foreknowledge and supposed exhaustive definite foreknowledge, between libertarian free will and supposed compatibilistic 'free will'.
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:squint: Much like there is a difference between Shank and Scripture. I choose the latter here and in the above.
 
lee_merrill

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Philetus said:
Grace is 'from God's decision"; repentance is from our own volition by grace through the Holy Spirit; by grace THROUGH faith.
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Then how can God know only a remnant in Israel will repent?

Otherwise (Calvinism) God is doing our repenting for us????
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No, but he does grant repentance, and not simply grace for repentance.

Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth. (2 Tim. 2:25)

Blessings,
Lee
 
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godrulz

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
:squint: Much like there is a difference between Shank and Scripture. I choose the latter here and in the above.
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Thankfully Shank generally uses a plethora of Scripture in context with good exegesis more times than not. I realize that Calvinists disdain anything that is not the party line. I must admit I am finding 'Elect in the Son' harder to follow early on than 'Life in the Son'.
 
elected4ever

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Philetus said:
That's fair.
But, are you chicken?
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Not a feather on my body.

Philetus said:
From your perspective ... Is there anything that God doesn't know about the future?
Just say so.

Philetus
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Sense we both know that God's foreknowledge exist I do not choose to limit it. It is God's plan. not ours so I don't think it wise to limit God. Whether He does or does not should not cause us to think God is anything other than God. Sense our choice has been made it is a little late to opt out of the plan don't you think.
 
Philetus

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elected4ever said:
Not a feather on my body.
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:chuckle:
Sense we both know that God's foreknowledge exist I do not choose to limit it. It is God's plan. not ours so I don't think it wise to limit God. Whether He does or does not should not cause us to think God is anything other than God. Sense our choice has been made it is a little late to opt out of the plan don't you think.
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I don't know that God's foreknowledge exists! Especially the way you define it. You can't say it can you? The label exhaustive applies to your definition no matter how much you deny it.

Sense it is God's plan, isn't it God's choice? What we continue to stumble over is our disagreement whether all our choices have in fact been made and are therefore knowable before the fact. You say they are. They aren't. If God has limited His use of power (and knowledge is one form of power) who are we to question even that? It is part of God's plan revealed in scripture to give humans the option to 'opt out' (as you put it) at their own peril and to insist otherwise is to make the God of scripture something other than who He is or scripture is invalid and your fanciful interpretations become paramount. Read Romans 1-2 and see if God hasn't granted the option to 'opt out' of His plan. "for that reason God has given them over to ..... depraved thinking" ... among other things.

God is who God is and scripture reveals that He is in loving relationship with His creation, not in meticulous control through foreknowledge.

Philetus
 
Philetus

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themuzicman said:
So, I take it there's no interest in discussing God's relational nature as revealed in Scripture?

Muz
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Apparently not until the rocks cry out.



Anybody here read Carl Raschke's The Next Reformation: Why Evangelicals Must Embrace Postmodernity?


It's time to meet our (re)maker.
P
 
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godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
Conversely, would lack of (fore)knowledge equal impotency?
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Foreknowledge would offer no providential advantage for God. He would not have the ability to change the bad things He foresaw (it would make His foreknowledge inaccurate).

Omnipotence does not depend on EDF. Intelligence and omnicompetence does not depend on EDF. Power with perfect past and present knowledge is sufficient (He would have EDF if determinism was true, which it is not; by choosing to create significant others, He voluntarily limited the nature of His knowledge due to some future aspects being unsettled...so correctly known as possible vs actual).

Is. 46 and 48 is based on ABILITY, not supposed foreknowledge.

I repeat (without proving it): EDF and free will is a logical contradiction similar to God being able to create square circles.
 
Yorzhik

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RobE said:
I did answer the question. I just didn't answer it in a way you could comprehend. Perhaps if you would answer your own question, then I might be able to know in advance what you wish the answer to be.

Here's the question:

Yorzhik: The knowledge of that being wouldn't and couldn't have caused any of the events in its knowledge. I've said this all along (and Clete would agree). So do you know enough about the OV position to understand why we are OV despite saying this?​

Here's my answer:
RobE: Yes. We understand why you say this. God's necessary knowledge means that something necessarily causes the action in the future. I agree. The component which seems to elude the o.v. mindset is this: If that cause is your own will, then your will remains free. The only way that your position is satisified is if something other than your will is the cause of the action.​

Your objection to my answer was:

"Rob, you just went off on your own tangent." and "So if you ever get on topic I'll try and respond."​

Since my answer is 'off topic' perhaps you are able to provide me with the topic through your own answer. So, that being said, why are you determined to adhere to open theism despite believing God's foreknowledge doesn't cause future events?
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Great, then you are volunteering to answer this request:

Add "will not happen" or "possibly will not happen" to #3 and explain how it still makes sense.
1. Necessarily, any event that God foreknows will happen.
2. God foreknows x.
3. Therefore, x will happen.
 
Philetus

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SaulToPaul said:
Conversely, would lack of (fore)knowledge equal impotency?
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what GR said

No, not knowing what is unknowable is not impotency in any respect. God knows all that is knowable (perfect [exhaustive] past and present knowledge).

Creating a universe that requires competency rather than foreknowledge doesn't render God less powerful.

Can God create a circle out of squares?
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I can MAKE circles out of squares!!!!, but only at the expense of the squares. :chuckle: I believe that is true of God as well. He is quite good at remaking things though He seems to prefer starting with nothing when CREATING and where human beings created in His own image are involved, remaking them through loving reciprocal relationships rather than coercion to His future plans is the bedrock of the Gospel.

So, prepare to meet your REmaker. :WA:

What I can not do in this universe is make square circles. Can God?


Philetus
 
Philetus

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SaulToPaul said:
God is powerful enough to make a sinner into a righteous sinner, surely
he could make a circular square! :D
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What is a 'circular square'?:dizzy: Is that like circular reasoning?

Sounds like you serve a God who can do anything you dream up for Him to do. I mean, if you can dream it up or imagine it then surely God can do it. Right?

Philetus
 
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