RobE
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Your answer ignores that He sees it happening now and refuses to intervene. My view simply states that He saw it happening beforehand and refused to intervene.
Same answer, different time frame.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
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Your answer ignores that He sees it happening now and refuses to intervene. My view simply states that He saw it happening beforehand and refused to intervene.
Same answer, different time frame.
lee_merrill
New member
Then is God just if he lets evil happen? You should perhaps discuss with Patman if you say "yes."
What about the freedom of the person being hurt by sin? And God does revoke freedom, notably, at the moment of death for people who are unrepentant, and also at times before then.
Acts 13:11 "Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun." Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.
But the most difficult question remains, how can God know a remnant will be saved, and only a remnant from Israel? How can this even be his sentence on earth, isn't that unjust, to decide that only a remnant will be saved, and carry it out?
lee_merrill
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Quite so, and this means a principle claim of the Open View is answered.
God would be unjust if he let evil happen with no consequences. God does judge all evil, sooner or later, so justice delayed is not justice denied.
There would be no order in the universe if God stopped every evil act before it happened. We would be in a deterministic matrix. Love implies a possibility of evil, risk to God and the universe, and suffering. He mitigates it as much as possible, but certainly holds the evildoer accountable in the end.
Issues are complex and you are trying to make them simplistic. God is loving, holy, sovereign, just, merciful, good, etc. We can bank on this, but the exact nature of His ways is only partially revealed.
Gen. 18:25
patman
Active member
You answer ignores how he set it all into motion... so to say "he did nothing" is farther from the truth than can possibly be! He "SET it into motion." He caused it according to you.
Not only that, he caused it, and doesn't stop it knowing he wouldn't stop it for a long-long time. Way after millions have died and went to hell.
That's just a sad way to believe.
lee_merrill
New member
So then my view has God as just, as well as yours. But no, simply punishing all evil is not complete justice, God must be just in what he allows, correct? For he intervenes at times, and this also is justice, and to not intervene at times would be injustice.
So, no order in the universe when all the wicked are in hell?
Well, actually, I just want to hear the Open View answers here.
God does revoke freedom, does he not?
But the most difficult question remains, how can God know a remnant will be saved, and only a remnant, from Israel? How can this even be his sentence on earth, isn't that unjust, to decide that only a remnant will be saved, and carry it out?
Amen.
Genesis 18:25 "Far be it from you to do such a thing-- to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Amen...
Let us note however, the following verse:
Ezekiel 21:3-4 This is what the Lord says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north.
So our expectations of what God might do, and remain just, are not to be taken as true because they seem to us to be appropriate.
Blessings,
Lee
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lee_merrill
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But now the goalposts have shifted--Rob didn't address this aspect because that wasn't part of the question.
But God did not know that evil might be present in the world when he set it in motion? So again, the Open View has the same problem as you propose here, God did not do nothing, according to the Open View.
Then why then did God make the devil, knowing he might go astray? Why doesn't he stop him now?
Why didn't God stop Hitler? What about all the free will of the Jewish people, being violated?
God did NOT make the devil. He made Lucifer, who became Satan. The possibility of love and obedience includes the equal possibility of selfishness, enmity, disobedience. Free will is a means to the end of love, not an end in itself.
Boyd, "Satan and the Problem of Evil" will answer your questions about allowing Hitler and Satan to exist. They require an extended discussion, not a post or two. Theodicy is a big issue for theism, atheism, Calvinism, free will theisms. There are a variety of answers. I feel OT has the most biblical, coherent approach on this difficult subject.
Here is a skeleton outline of some of his points that are expanded on (trinitarian warfare theodicy vs blueprint model):
1) Love must be freely chosen
2) Love entails risk
3) Love, and thus freedom, entails that we are responsible for one another (some of your answer to evildoers doing evil to others is here)
4) The power to influence for the worse must be roughly proportionate to our power to influence for the better (more answer 4U).
5) Not only does love entail freedom, but this freedom must be, within limits, irrevocable (hence does not intervene to stop all evil all the time)
6) This limitation (God places an irrevocable freedom on Himself and others) is not infinite, for our capacity to freely chose is not endless (angels and men have finite capacity to embrace or thwart God's purposes for our lives; God wages war against evil at the present time, but is certain to overcome it in the future; He does not decree or cause it for a higher good).
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Boyd, "Satan and the Problem of Evil" will answer your questions about allowing Hitler and Satan to exist. They require an extended discussion, not a post or two. Theodicy is a big issue for theism, atheism, Calvinism, free will theisms. There are a variety of answers. I feel OT has the most biblical, coherent approach on this difficult subject.
Here is a skeleton outline of some of his points that are expanded on (trinitarian warfare theodicy vs blueprint model):
1) Love must be freely chosen
2) Love entails risk
3) Love, and thus freedom, entails that we are responsible for one another (some of your answer to evildoers doing evil to others is here)
4) The power to influence for the worse must be roughly proportionate to our power to influence for the better (more answer 4U).
5) Not only does love entail freedom, but this freedom must be, within limits, irrevocable (hence does not intervene to stop all evil all the time)
6) This limitation (God places an irrevocable freedom on Himself and others) is not infinite, for our capacity to freely chose is not endless (angels and men have finite capacity to embrace or thwart God's purposes for our lives; God wages war against evil at the present time, but is certain to overcome it in the future; He does not decree or cause it for a higher good).
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RobE
New member
My postion would say that He allows it for a greater purpose!
Hebrews 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved.
Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved.
Is it your claim that God stands by helplessly while millions die and go to hell? If not, then how is you position different from mine?
RobE
New member
Godrulz: 5) Not only does love entail freedom, but this freedom must be, within limits, irrevocable (hence does not intervene to stop all evil all the time)
Cake.
Cake eating.
By your own words, freedom is revokable. Timing is everything. When did God decide to allow evil to continue? Was it perhaps, before creating a universe which included free agents?
Boyd goes on to say freedom is finite. After death, the lost are severely limited in their freedom. They will not be able to do evil against others anymore. They will not be free to choose Christ or escape hell.
God risked the possibility of evil by creating free moral agents. This does not mean He foreknew it as a certainty or desired/intended it for a higher purpose.
No cake eating, just your lack of understanding.
patman
Active member
Again, "Allowed" is different from "caused." If God created this knowing it would happen, he caused it. Are you saying he caused evil for a higher purpose?
RobE
New member
Again, God 'causes' everything. You wouldn't exist if God didn't 'cause' your existence. The question is --- HOW does God 'cause' things?
God causes things:
1. Through direct intervention(enactment).
2. Through refusing to intevene(allowance).
Open theists claim the latter to which I agree, and promote, in the case of free acts.
The only way your ideas escape God 'causing' things is if God is unable to prevent evil from occuring.
I know that you are unable or unwilling to understand this simple idea, so I'll elaborate further......
Ask yourself does God 'approve' of specific evil acts which occur?
1 Samuel 16: 14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
15 Saul's attendants said to him, "See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."
17 So Saul said to his attendants, "Find someone who plays well and bring him to me."
18 One of the servants answered, "I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the harp. He is a brave man and a warrior. He speaks well and is a fine-looking man. And the LORD is with him."
19 Then Saul sent messengers to Jesse and said, "Send me your son David, who is with the sheep." 20 So Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine and a young goat and sent them with his son David to Saul.
21 David came to Saul and entered his service. Saul liked him very much, and David became one of his armor-bearers. 22 Then Saul sent word to Jesse, saying, "Allow David to remain in my service, for I am pleased with him."
23 Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.
15 Saul's attendants said to him, "See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."
17 So Saul said to his attendants, "Find someone who plays well and bring him to me."
18 One of the servants answered, "I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the harp. He is a brave man and a warrior. He speaks well and is a fine-looking man. And the LORD is with him."
19 Then Saul sent messengers to Jesse and said, "Send me your son David, who is with the sheep." 20 So Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine and a young goat and sent them with his son David to Saul.
21 David came to Saul and entered his service. Saul liked him very much, and David became one of his armor-bearers. 22 Then Saul sent word to Jesse, saying, "Allow David to remain in my service, for I am pleased with him."
23 Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.
If so, then for what reason? Our Lord never does evil, but He allows it. By allowing it, is it not true that He must approve of it occuring? Or is it your claim that evil is stronger than He is?
Did God work evil against Job or did He simply approve of Satan doing evil against Job?
Job 16:11 God has turned me over to evil men and thrown me into the clutches of the wicked.
patman
Active member
Job was speaking out of his mind in grief, and Saul's evil spirit was earned through Saul's sin. Let me add that Job repented of what he said against God.
It is wicked of you to say God approves sin. And that is why I reject your theology.
patman
Active member
Amen
lee_merrill
New member
Yes, I know the view, now let's examine the difficulties with this view.
Starting with "Love must be freely chosen":
But love comes from God (1 Jn. 4:7):
1 Jn. 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us...
And "We love because he first loved us" (1 Jn. 4:19). Not because we chose to!
Yes, people are responsible to love, but God has to give this, too, there can be a tendency to look at the start of the process, at the new birth, as if it was the end of the process, in the marriage.
But the marriage comes later, and then at the end, love can be free, and freely given, yet in the start of the process, God gives life, and love, and then, more and more, we can give it to him, and with his freedom, give it more and more freely.
God wants reciprocal love. It involves mind, heart, and will. Yes, we love because He first loved us (though atheists can love their family), but it is still our love. We are not passive in the process. We can also be selfish, the antithesis of love. We can withhold love (seeking the highest good of another) or express it. We are commanded to love. He does not give commands that are impossible. We are to love, not just be a passive vessel for His love.
Your spouse and children love you whether you initiate reciprocal love or not.
Love is not caused or coerced. If you cannot see this, we are mere robots in a matrix with no good explanation why some love and some do not (God's love is not limited or arbitrary).
Your spouse and children love you whether you initiate reciprocal love or not.
Love is not caused or coerced. If you cannot see this, we are mere robots in a matrix with no good explanation why some love and some do not (God's love is not limited or arbitrary).
RobE
New member
How are you able to reject that which you continually misunderstand?
It is Christian theology which presents God as all powerful.
If God doesn't approve of the current situation then why does it exist? God must endorse the evil for a reason; otherwise, He would not stand by and allow it to continue. We agree on this, yet your mind blindly draw a distinction between our positions.
Godrulz said:
I didn't say that God desired evil, He just allows evil for a greater purpose. He approved of its existence or it would not exist. It's easy to see why Patrick and you like to draw the distinction here where none exists. Is God unable to intervene and stop evil? If so, then His refusal to do so means that He approves of it occurring for one reason or another.
Why does it matter so much to Patrick as to when God allowed it?
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