ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Philetus

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If God had allowed Adam to do that Adam would not have died.

I should respect man's ability to sin and be a good boy and say nothing. Smart, real smart.:kookoo:

I believe man has free will within the confines of who He is and not who he is not. Free will is therefore limited, not total.

Allowed as in permitted it ... didn't prevent it ... didn't cause it either; not allowed as in approved of it.
What are you smoking? You know, a mind is a terrible thing to waste and some minds are more terrible than others. But, that's another debate.

Do you believe that people commit suicide, E4E? I mean could you (or I or Knight) commit suicide if (say) this thread goes into part 3? I'm not yet recommending it or approving it ... just asking.

Wasted minds want to know,
Philetusopolis
 

Philetus

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If you don't see it the same way, we are free to go our separate ways on this issue.

I know truth because God Himself allows it and wills it to be so. If I am in error, I am His workmanship, and He'll eventually bring me where He desires me to be.
"Not that I have already arrived, but I press on..."

Free to go separate ways?

Koresh was free to go his separate way? I'm sure he thought he knew scripture and was pressing toward truth. Did God bring him and his followers and those children to where God desired them to be? Have they arrived? Are they right where God wants them?

Come on Lon! Quit ducking the issue. Yes! Its more than head logic. As a man thinks in his heart so is he. What does your heart tell you? You know; the place Jesus lives like when you were a kid and believed the flat-people on the flannel-graph-board had something of truth to say through their stories.
 

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This is the same thing Hilston used to say and I firmly believe it does injustice to the meanings of the words and phrases we use (i.e., can we make choices?).

While it may be true that we only choose what we choose, that doesn't really address the idea if we have the actually ability to choose otherwise when considering our choices.
I don't know this person Hilston. But the way I have defined free will is the way it is defined among all orthodox classical theists. For example, I have Methodist and a Lutheran authored textbooks on my desk and both say much the same. It is only the open theist who seeks to define freedom that would make them autonomous--that they could do otherwise. You are choosing every day. So am I. Neither of us "feels" we are being cosmically constrained by our choices. Yet only one of us has the right understanding of the mechanisms of these choices. We both cannot be correct. So we both know that our choices made that are real, and impactful.

Now I claim that these choices are made by our strongest inclinations. I think when you ponder how you are choosing the next time you choose, you will see the same thing. Or, why else would you choose? "I just flipped a coin!" OK, then you were most strongly inclined to make your choice by leaving it to probability.

Asserting "No, I could do differently from what I just did", is meaningless, for you have already done something and must move to the next thing to choose and do, and we start all over again moved by our strongest inclinations. Pushing at the concept of choice ultimately ends everyone deep within the philosopher's realm trying to figure out what 'reality' means, etc. Very unproductive stuff. So we turn to the Scriptures. Nowhere in them do we find any support that God's creatures are autonomously free--to be so would put us outside of God's control of His universe. After all, He is holding it all together by His will. As such, we are subject to that same controlling influence just as the moon is in its orbit.

That may be true, however if that is what you believe then I don't think you should use that as a reason as to why we are wrong and why you are right (which is what it seemed like you were doing).
I don't know where you have concluded from what I have previously written that because we cannot fully understand God that I am right and others are wrong. Some context would greatly help here.

I am ready... give me your best shot.
Thank you. Two items come immediately to mind.

1. How do you explain God's lack of knowledge of the actions of free agents until they so act in light of the incarnation? Did God decide the the incarnation after Adam sinned? If not, when did God decide?

2. Open theism attempts to resolve the problem of evil issue by claiming that since free agents commit sins, that God is out of the loop, as it were. God in fact is sometimes surprised (caught unawares) by this evil done by His free agents. Further, open theism holds that some evil is simply gratuitous (no reasons), the result of the causal chain of two or more agents acting independently. Boyd describes this evil as "chance by-product of other decisions that were made." So how does this absolve God from the moral responsibility for creating a world that would contain sin? Even if, as open theism declares, God did not know, surely God would have surmised that morally free agents would sometimes choose badly. I don't see the improvement in the PoE situation that open theism would lay claim to.
 

patman

Active member
If God had allowed Adam to do that Adam would not have died.

I should respect man's ability to sin and be a good boy and say nothing. Smart, real smart.:kookoo:

I believe man has free will within the confines of who He is and not who he is not. Free will is therefore limited, not total.

Let's see.. how do I answer this post.....

hmmmmm.....

Philetus said it pretty welll...... sooooo... hmmmmm....

OK.


Do I look like a screwdriver to you?

And now what.....

ok, E4E is probably going to ask why I am talking about screwdrivers.... so I better add:


Quit twisting my words around.
 

Nathon Detroit

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1. How do you explain God's lack of knowledge of the actions of free agents until they so act in light of the incarnation? Did God decide the the incarnation after Adam sinned? If not, when did God decide?
There is no way of knowing if there would have been an incarnation had Adam not sinned and had there been no fall at all.

God knew prior to creation the power He was giving His creation and the possibilities that humans would sin, God had planned in advance that He would send His Son Jesus in the form of a man to take on the sin of the world if mankind fell.

It would be also interesting to know what would have transpired had Adam fallen after he and Eve had already had children. It's fun to ponder the possibilities, and it will be fun to find out in heaven the answers to some of these questions.

2. Open theism attempts to resolve the problem of evil issue by claiming that since free agents commit sins, that God is out of the loop, as it were. God in fact is sometimes surprised (caught unawares) by this evil done by His free agents. Further, open theism holds that some evil is simply gratuitous (no reasons), the result of the causal chain of two or more agents acting independently. Boyd describes this evil as "chance by-product of other decisions that were made." So how does this absolve God from the moral responsibility for creating a world that would contain sin? Even if, as open theism declares, God did not know, surely God would have surmised that morally free agents would sometimes choose badly. I don't see the improvement in the PoE situation that open theism would lay claim to.
Good question.

Why allow sin to occur knowing that sin is evil?

Because the alternative is far worse! (No-freedom! The alternative would defeat the purpose of creating beings to love and have relationships with)

God allows sin because He values our freedom. He desires that we choose Him with our own volition. The only way to give us true freedom was to create us with the ability to do other than He wills.

A good and loving father allows his son to scrap his knees playing in the park because the alternative would be to "bubble-wrap" his son and lock him in the closet. :shocked:

Fun questions! I love discussing this stuff. :up:
 

elected4ever

New member
Allowed as in permitted it ... didn't prevent it ... didn't cause it either; not allowed as in approved of it.
God did not allow or permit Adam to sin. Adam did that against the will of God. If God allowed sin or permitted it then God could not judge it.


Do you believe that people commit suicide, E4E? I mean could you (or I or Knight) commit suicide if (say) this thread goes into part 3? I'm not yet recommending it or approving it ... just asking.
Yes I believe people can commit suicide. No, I do not believe that you or Knight or my self can commit suicide because we have life that is eternal and cannot be taken. Not even by our self.


Wasted minds want to know,
Philetusopolis
No they don't if they did they would receive the truth. Our minds are not wasted. We have the mind of Christ.:)
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
There is no way of knowing if there would have been an incarnation had Adam not sinned and had there been no fall at all.

God knew prior to creation the power He was giving His creation and the possibilities that humans would sin, God had planned in advance that He would send His Son Jesus in the form of a man to take on the sin of the world if mankind fell.

It would be also interesting to know what would have transpired had Adam fallen after he and Eve had already had children. It's fun to ponder the possibilities, and it will be fun to find out in heaven the answers to some of these questions.

Good question.

Why allow sin to occur knowing that sin is evil?

Because the alternative is far worse! (No-freedom! The alternative would defeat the purpose of creating beings to love and have relationships with)

God allows sin because He values our freedom. He desires that we choose Him with our own volition. The only way to give us true freedom was to create us with the ability to do other than He wills.

A good and loving father allows his son to scrap his knees playing in the park because the alternative would be to "bubble-wrap" his son and lock him in the closet. :shocked:

Fun questions! I love discussing this stuff. :up:

Knight,

Truly no offense intended, but it seems to me you enjoy speculation and hypothetical stuff, much more than the written words of Scripture and orthodox theology.

I understand this tendency, for I am of the same inclination . . .to the point that I must discipline myself to limit my thoughts and imaginations within the bounds of Holy Scripture.

In a good spirit,
Nang
 

patman

Active member
God did not allow or permit Adam to sin. Adam did that against the will of God. If God allowed sin or permitted it then God could not judge it.

Why can't God judge what he allows to happen when others are doing it?

If God wants you to do X and you do Y instead, God allowed you to do Y, but can still judge that you didn't do X.
 

patman

Active member
Are you saying that God says that sin is permissible?

How is it that God allowed me to do y. I would have chosen to do y irrespective of what God willed.

Are you trying to be this dense?

No, I am not saying sin is permissible, I am saying it is allowed. As in God didn't stop the event. E4E, Philetus defined it for you in 5 different ways, do you really not understand? Or are you just trying to make it look like we are saying something we are not(and know what you are doing)?
 

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God knew prior to creation the power He was giving His creation and the possibilities that humans would sin, God had planned in advance that He would send His Son Jesus in the form of a man to take on the sin of the world if mankind fell.
By "planned in advance" then I assume you disagree with Sander's take? Sanders writes it is an error to hold that before Creation God planned Jesus' crucifixion. In fact Sanders states that the crucifixion was not part of the plan until the very night before it happened. Sanders goes on to state that even after the crucifixion was accepted by Christ and God the Father, there was still uncertainty, "Will this gambit work?" How do you reconcile the idea that the crucifixion was uncertain with passages such as Mark 8:31ff; Mark 9:31-32; Mark 10:32ff?

Why allow sin to occur knowing that sin is evil? Because the alternative is far worse! (No-freedom! The alternative would defeat the purpose of creating beings to love and have relationships with)

God allows sin because He values our freedom. He desires that we choose Him with our own volition. The only way to give us true freedom was to create us with the ability to do other than He wills.
By "allows sin" do you believe that while God, as Creator, is the ultimate cause of sin, yet God does not effectuate a sin? In my previous post, I noted that open theism sees some evil as simply meaningless. Do you believe that there are some evil acts are meaningless?
A good and loving father allows his son to scrap his knees playing in the park because the alternative would be to "bubble-wrap" his son and lock him in the closet.
I think this metaphor is a bit tame when speaking of evil. Why is it not appropriate to state that the evils of a Stalin or Hitler are worth God's gift of the freedom you describe?


**see: Sanders, The Openness of God: A Biblical Challenge to the Traditional Understanding of God.
and The God Who Risks, a Theology of Providence
 
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godrulz

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By "planned in advance" then I assume you disagree with Sander's take? Sanders writes it is an error to hold that before Creation God planned Jesus' crucifixion. In fact Sanders states that the crucifixion was not part of the plan until the very night before it happened. Sanders goes on to state that even after the crucifixion was accepted by Christ and God the Father, there was still uncertainty, "Will this gambit work?" How do you reconcile the idea that the crucifixion was uncertain with passages such as Mark 8:31ff; Mark 9:31-32; Mark 10:32ff?

By "allows sin" do you believe that while God, as Creator, is the ultimate cause of sin, yet God does not effectuate a sin? In my previous post, I noted that open theism sees some evil as simply meaningless. Do you believe that there are some evil acts are meaningless?
I think this metaphor is a bit tame when speaking of evil. Why is it not appropriate to state that the evils of a Stalin or Hitler are worth God's gift of the freedom you describe?


**see: Sanders, The Openness of God: A Biblical Challenge to the Traditional Understanding of God.


I would like to read the passage in context about Sanders. This does not sound at all like what Boyd would say (I assume they would be similar on this point). It does not even sound like what Sanders would say?! If he did, most OT would disagree with him as you have written it.
 

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I would like to read the passage in context about Sanders. This does not sound at all like what Boyd would say (I assume they would be similar on this point). It does not even sound like what Sanders would say?! If he did, most OT would disagree with him as you have written it.
When you get the book, see pages 98-101. As much as I dislike being mis-quoted I can assure you that I do not misquote others.

Boyd (God of the Possible, pgs. 44-45) disagrees with Sanders:
“While Scripture portrays the crucifixion as a predestined event, it never suggests that the individuals who participated in this event were predestined to do so or foreknown as doing so. It was certain that Jesus would be crucified, but it was not certain from eternity that Pilot [sic], Herod, or Caiaphas would play the roles they played in the crucifixion. They participated in Christ’s death of their own free wills”

“Since God determines whatever he wants to about world history, we should not find it surprising that the central defining event in world history—the crucifixion—included a number of predestined aspects. It seems that the incarnation and crucifixion were part of God’s plan from 'before the foundation of the world.'"

Of course, Boyd's position that the crucifixion was predestined before the foundation of the world does not "help", given the open theist's assertion that God does not know what His "free" creatures will do. Which is why most of what I have seen written by open theists follow Sanders' path.
 
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PKevman

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The future is not knowable because the future doesn't exist. What God declares will come to pass comes to pass because He brings it to pass by His power. When God determines He is going to make something happen, (such as the eternal judgment of the wicked unredeemed) it doesn't matter how many years pass by, when the time comes He will make it come to pass. That position is far more honoring to God than to say that He has to peek into the future in order to see what is going to come to pass in order to make them come to pass.
 

PKevman

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There is no way of knowing if there would have been an incarnation had Adam not sinned and had there been no fall at all.

God knew prior to creation the power He was giving His creation and the possibilities that humans would sin, God had planned in advance that He would send His Son Jesus in the form of a man to take on the sin of the world if mankind fell.

It would be also interesting to know what would have transpired had Adam fallen after he and Eve had already had children. It's fun to ponder the possibilities, and it will be fun to find out in heaven the answers to some of these questions.

Good question.

Why allow sin to occur knowing that sin is evil?

Because the alternative is far worse! (No-freedom! The alternative would defeat the purpose of creating beings to love and have relationships with)

God allows sin because He values our freedom. He desires that we choose Him with our own volition. The only way to give us true freedom was to create us with the ability to do other than He wills.

A good and loving father allows his son to scrap his knees playing in the park because the alternative would be to "bubble-wrap" his son and lock him in the closet. :shocked:

Fun questions! I love discussing this stuff. :up:

Well said indeed Knight. If God wanted to create robots that were pre-programmed to follow Him, then He could have done that. But He didn't do that. Calvinism states He did. Calvinism states that He decided which ones would follow Him and which ones wouldn't. It's exactly the same as creating robots, some good and some bad purposely ahead of time. They have no choice after all, since they are just robots.

I like to discuss it too brother. The neatest thing is that when you examine Scripture you find God presents Himself exactly this way.

God is living, personal, relational, loving, and good. These attributes of God are far more important than the measurements of how much God knows (omniscience), how much power He has (omnipotence), and how present God is (omnipresence).
Indeed the Greek attributes of God need to be rejected for the Biblical ones!
 

Clete

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Yeah, that is what I do.

What, btw, is rational about OVT?

So far as I am aware, all of it.



Prediction: If we go down this road very far at all, we are going to run into the qualitative vs. quantitative attributes of God paradigm problem again.
 

elected4ever

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Are you trying to be this dense?

No, I am not saying sin is permissible, I am saying it is allowed. As in God didn't stop the event. E4E, Philetus defined it for you in 5 different ways, do you really not understand? Or are you just trying to make it look like we are saying something we are not(and know what you are doing)?
If we were sitting in a cafe across the street from a bank and the bank was robbed, did you or me permit or allow the bank to be robbed? Are we complicit in the action of the bank robbers?
 

Philetus

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The future is not knowable because the future doesn't exist. What God declares will come to pass comes to pass because He brings it to pass by His power. When God determines He is going to make something happen, (such as the eternal judgment of the wicked unredeemed) it doesn't matter how many years pass by, when the time comes He will make it come to pass. That position is far more honoring to God than to say that He has to peek into the future in order to see what is going to come to pass in order to make them come to pass.

In fairness to the settled view I think the idea of reducing God's knowledge of the future to a 'sneak-peek' is a little pejorative. According to them God has no choice but to know the future exhaustively because he either has determined every detail of it or simply by virtue of his being God outside of time he cannot not look or not know.

I agree the bottom line is that the future does not yet exist. There is anticipation, even hope because God is consistent and faithful and able to fulfill His promises, not because God has already seen what does not exist.

I believe the incarnation was always part of God's original plan in creating; that God 'always and forever' intended to experience His creation (including significant others) up-close and personal; in a reciprocally loving relational way. The existence of sin made it necessary for God to experience it in a way that included suffering, His own suffering with us and for us. God so loved the world that God was willing to enter even our suffering ... endure our evil ... for the sake of intimate relationship which now included (includes) redemption. Before the fall, God was able to enjoy this intimacy without pain, without suffering. After the fall such intimacy was not possible except by becoming flesh and dwelling among us. The cross became necessary to incarnation because of sin and we have no indication that God ever thought differently. What grace!
 
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elected4ever

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In fairness to the settled view I think the idea of reducing God's knowledge of the future to a 'sneak-peek' is a little pejorative. According to them God has no choice but to know the future exhaustively because he either has determined every detail of it or simply by virtue of his being God outside of time he cannot not look or not know.

I agree the bottom line is that the future does not yet exist. There is anticipation, even hope because God is consistent and faithful and able to fulfill His promises, not because God has already seen what does not exist.

I believe the incarnation was always part of God's original plan in creating; that God 'always and forever' intended to experience His creation (including significant others) up-close and personal; in a reciprocally loving relational way. The existence of sin made it necessary for God to experience it in a way that included suffering, His own suffering with us and for us. God so loved the world that God was willing to enter even our suffering ... endure our evil ... for the sake of intimate relationship witch now included (includes) redemption. Before the fall, God was able to enjoy this intimacy without pain, without suffering. After the fall such intimacy was not possible except by becoming flesh and dwelling among us. The cross became necessary to incarnation because of sin and we have no indication that God ever thought differently. What grace!
Now that is interesting. Are you saying that God would have became incarnate regardless of what Adam did?
 

Philetus

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If we were sitting in a cafe across the street from a bank and the bank was robbed, did you or me permit or allow the bank to be robbed? Are we complicit in the action of the bank robbers?

Did either of us have foreknowledge of the robbers plans to rob the bank? If so that would make us co-conspirators. Did either of us have the power/ability to stop/prevent it? Did God? I think we both agree that God in fact could have stopped it. Why didn't He? He just let it happen.
 
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