ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

Yes it was sarcasm. It is offensive, but I hope he doesn't really mean it.

I agree with you that the one essential thing in every dispensation is faith.
Hab 2:4 Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him, but the just shall live by his faith.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Rom 4:11,12 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

But the passages that we have looked at where it says they were saved by faith and works have not been answered. They are: Lk 3:3 And John the Baptist went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

They also had to endure in their belief in order to be saved. Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Even the eleven apostles had to endure in their faith, no matter what! John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Their message of salvation was very clear and different from the one the ascended Christ would give to the Apostle Paul.

I hope you can see the difference in the method of salvation in John 15:6 and Acts 2:38. Peter really made it plain on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In the great commission, Christ emphasized water baptism for salvation. Mark 16:15,16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Please respond to these passages.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

Things changed drastically when the dispensation of grace started. Remember, it is also called the dispensation of the mystery. I want to point out the big differences in this dispensation from the previous ones and the next ones after the rapture.

I believe you would agree with me that nothing is more important to us than our salvation. In this dispensation, we are justified by faith alone. Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

It’s somewhat confusing to see Peter, James and John’s writings at the same time that we see Paul’s, but that’s the only way that there could be biblical material that would be specially directed at those who will be in the tribulation.

In dispensations other than the Dispensation of Grace they were justified by faith plus works.
Jam 2:11,12,14,20,21,24,25 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can (the (in Greek) faith save him? 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

I realize that we really disagree on this, but I hope that doesn’t affect our fellowship in Christ.

Another thing that is very important to me is our security. Are we saved forever when we get saved? I think you would not agree, and I understand that many are very unsure. There are a lot of believers who are not secure in their salvation. However, I think God’s word that was written by Paul for this dispensation, shows that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, secure in our salvation, and cannot lose it.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

What does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise? I think Ephesians 4:30 shows us that we cannot lose it. Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

But in contrast to my spiritual blessing of eternal security, those of previous dispensations and the ones who will be in the tribulation will have to endure to be sure of their salvation. Christ spoke to this issue in the tribulation setting in a number of places. That’s probably one reason you don’t believe in eternal security.
Mat 24:9-14 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom (in contrast to the gospel associated with the “Dispensation of the Mystery”) will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Also, when we look at Christ’s ministry when He was earth, we quickly see that they had to continue to abide in Christ to be saved. Again, speaking to the Eleven, Christ said in John 15:1-6,10 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Your brother in Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

I know you don’t think what some people think, that we have to be baptized to be saved, but I believe that we don’t have to be baptized at all in water. you know the response of the Philippian jailer’s question in Acts 16:30,31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 (Paul and Silas) said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Paul then talked to them about God’s gospel of grace. He told them that everyone in the whole world, including them, had sinned. He also told them that their sin required the death penalty. But then he told them the good news–that Jesus Christ died for their sins so they might have eternal life. Those folks believed in Christ as their Savior and were saved from their sins.

As we look at Paul’s ministry after hel had been on his first missionary journey and was over half way through his second journey, he received further revelations from the Lord. One of those revelations was that water baptism was not part of his commission. He wrote 1 Corinthians after he got that revelation. That’s why he wrote in 1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Christ had sent the Eleven Apostles, that is, the Circumcision Apostles, to preach to the Jews but, they had to be baptized to be saved. It wasn’t until the day of Pentecost that they did anything. Here is the basis for what they were to preach, again. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Even when Peter later wrote to the Jewish believers of the dispersion, he still said that water baptism saved them. 1 Pe 3:19-21 [Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us–baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

There is one great thing we have in common with the believers of all dispensations. The purpose of the mystery and all other dispensations is love. 1 Ti 1:3-5 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia - remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment (charge) is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

This charge was that sacred deposit, the mystery, that God gave to Paul.
1 Ti 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare.
2 Ti 1:12-14 I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit until that Day. 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.14 Keep that good thing which was committed to you the good deposit, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

These differences between the Dispensation of Grace, given to Paul by the ascended Christ, and the message of faith and works that Christ had given before He ascended are very great.

The alleged contradictions all dissolve.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Good night

 

[Sozo]

Splitting hairs based on a narrow definition of salvation. The OT concept of salvation may not be identical to the fuller understanding in the NT, but this does not mean there are no similarities. Abraham died as a man of faith in right standing with God. He did not go to purgatory waiting to get saved.

"And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."


"All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear."

"...in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

"...the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel"

"...Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus"

"And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."

"But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

 

[elected4ever]

Sozo, the new birth is a birth of our spirit not the receiving of the Holy Spirit. It is that spirit that was kept in paradise until the resurrection. I see no conflict.

 

[Sozo]

Sozo, the new birth is a birth of our spirit not the receiving of the Holy Spirit. It is that spirit that was kept in paradise until the resurrection. I see no conflict.

I have moved this discussion Here

 

[godrulz]

Godrulz,

Yes it was sarcasm. It is offensive, but I hope he doesn't really mean it.

I agree with you that the one essential thing in every dispensation is faith.
Hab 2:4 Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him, but the just shall live by his faith.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Rom 4:11,12 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

But the passages that we have looked at where it says they were saved by faith and works have not been answered. They are: Lk 3:3 And John the Baptist went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

They also had to endure in their belief in order to be saved. Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Even the eleven apostles had to endure in their faith, no matter what! John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Their message of salvation was very clear and different from the one the ascended Christ would give to the Apostle Paul.

I hope you can see the difference in the method of salvation in John 15:6 and Acts 2:38. Peter really made it plain on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In the great commission, Christ emphasized water baptism for salvation. Mark 16:15,16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Please respond to these passages.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Repentant faith is a condition for salvation. It was heart repentance, evidenced by tangible baptism, that JB was talking about. Water cannot save anyone. Without repentance and faith, the person goes down a dry sinner and comes up a wet sinner.

John 3 does not mention baptism by water (3:3 is not Christian believer's baptism...there are at least 3 possible interpretations of water with Christian baptism not being one of them). Am I to use this as a proof text to contradict you. I did previously attempt to respond to the passages that linked belief and baptism. It is not necessary to conclude baptismal regeneration from them.

Verses about a believer's security (they are secure because they are actively believers) do not contradict the verses that have a conditional element or that warn about the possibility of falling away or apostasy. Shank (and other threads I posted on) show that non-OSAS verses can also be found in Pauline writings (contrary to Mid-Acts expectations).

I think the principles throughout the Gospels and Acts and the rest of the NT affirm salvation by faith alone, believer's baptism subsequent to salvation as an act of discipleship, and the need to continue in the faith. Without the grid of a preconceived view, I think all relevant verses can be exegeted in context in a consistent manner.

You emphasize apparent differences among NT writers. I recognize these different emphases, but also see much similarity throughout the NT. In all my Bible reading, Mid-Acts never jumped out as a grid for interpretation. I think there are other plausible explanations for the transition from the Old to New Covenant that are less problematic.

Until I understand "The Plot", I think I have limited credibility and ability to do justice to this discussion. Thx for your patience.

 

[GodsfreeWill]

Most commentators/exegetes do not find a contradiction between these statements and Pauline thought.

e.g. I Peter is not teaching baptismal regeneration.

You'll have to explain this one. As Bob already quoted the scripture, it clearly says that the antitype which now SAVES us is baptism. (Further, we know this is speaking of water baptism because of Peter's paranthetical explaining that water baptism is not just taking a bath, but an act of faith.)

True faith will produce loving obedience (Pauline, Johannine, or Jesus' teaching).

I think this is irrelevant to the topic. If not, please explain why it IS relevant to the issue at hand.

There are also Pauline texts that contradict OSAS

Where?

(it is possible Paul wrote Hebrews).

Actually it is IMPOSSIBLE according to Hebrews 2:3 and many other reasons. We'll NEVER know who wrote Hebrews, so an argument based on conjecture is highly illogical and not convincable in the least.

I do not find support for unconditional eternal security in any dispensation, including Pauline thought.

Eph. 4:30 is pretty strong as well as Eph. 1:11-14 and 2 Tim. 2 to name a few. BTW, I don't find eternal security in any dispensation EXCEPT Paulin thought.

 

[GodsfreeWill]

I think a close reading of Jesus, Peter, OT, etc. shows that salvation has always been based on grace/faith.

Can you show me one verse where Christ speaks of GRACE? I read closely (like you said) and can't find a single one.

 

[godrulz]

John 3 talks about faith, not works. Jn. 1 says Jesus is full of grace and truth. Grace, mercy, justice, repentance, faith, holiness, love, relationship, etc. are concepts common to both covenants. Peter and Paul did talk about the death and resurrection of Christ after His life ministry. I would not expect the exact wording in the OT or Gospels.

 

[GodsfreeWill]

John 3 talks about faith, not works. Jn. 1 says Jesus is full of grace and truth. Grace, mercy, justice, repentance, faith, holiness, love, relationship, etc. are concepts common to both covenants. Peter and Paul did talk about the death and resurrection of Christ after His life ministry. I would not expect the exact wording in the OT or Gospels.

Godrulz, you completely missed my point, and I'd be willing to guess that you searched the Bible for "Jesus AND grace" and were surprsied at your findings. I asked you for one verse where Christ SPEAKS of grace and the fact remains, there is not one. Your claim that "I think a close reading of Jesus, Peter, OT, etc. shows that salvation has always been based on grace/faith." is in grave error. Godrulz, the best you can give me is John 1 where it says Jesus is full of grace? That seems like a mere copout for one who claims Jesus preached salvation by grace. Face the truth Godrulz, Jesus NEVER preached salvation by grace. Further, Peter never speaks of the redemptive value of Christ's death until Paul comes on the scene. You also failed to respond to my other post, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as possibly missing it, but I did post twice to you, one after another.

 

[Sozo]

Godrulz, you completely missed my point, and I'd be willing to guess that you searched the Bible for "Jesus AND grace" and were surprsied at your findings. I asked you for one verse where Christ SPEAKS of grace and the fact remains, there is not one. Your claim that "I think a close reading of Jesus, Peter, OT, etc. shows that salvation has always been based on grace/faith." is in grave error. Godrulz, the best you can give me is John 1 where it says Jesus is full of grace? That seems like a mere copout for one who claims Jesus preached salvation by grace. Face the truth Godrulz, Jesus NEVER preached salvation by grace. Further, Peter never speaks of the redemptive value of Christ's death until Paul comes on the scene. You also failed to respond to my other post, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as possibly missing it, but I did post twice to you, one after another.

Are you saying that we came to know grace through Paul and not Jesus?

 

[GodsfreeWill]

Are you saying that we came to know grace through Paul and not Jesus?

Sozo, Grace and Faith are what I would call transdispensational. Meaning, God has always had Grace, and man has always been saved by faith. What the mid-acts dispensationalist is trying to show is that the the only thing that has changed dispensationally is HOW God asks man to show ones faith. Does this make sense?

 

[godrulz]

Godrulz, you completely missed my point, and I'd be willing to guess that you searched the Bible for "Jesus AND grace" and were surprsied at your findings. I asked you for one verse where Christ SPEAKS of grace and the fact remains, there is not one. Your claim that "I think a close reading of Jesus, Peter, OT, etc. shows that salvation has always been based on grace/faith." is in grave error. Godrulz, the best you can give me is John 1 where it says Jesus is full of grace? That seems like a mere copout for one who claims Jesus preached salvation by grace. Face the truth Godrulz, Jesus NEVER preached salvation by grace. Further, Peter never speaks of the redemptive value of Christ's death until Paul comes on the scene. You also failed to respond to my other post, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as possibly missing it, but I did post twice to you, one after another.

I did not do a search. This was off the top of my head. Apart from Mid-Acts, I have never heard scholars or believers question God's grace from Genesis to Revelation. John 3 does not talk about works nor baptism. Jesus said the work (singular) of God (in response to the question about which workS are necessary for salvation) is to believe on God and the one whom He sent. You are ignoring entire passages that emphasize faith (which is linked to grace since it is not of works) that are non-Pauline. Paul's didactic passages also build a case for OT faith, apart from works. Why ignore these?

 

[godrulz]

Sozo, Grace and Faith are what I would call transdispensational. Meaning, God has always had Grace, and man has always been saved by faith. What the mid-acts dispensationalist is trying to show is that the the only thing that has changed dispensationally is HOW God asks man to show ones faith. Does this make sense?

So grace and faith are still the grounds/conditions of salvation. The evidences of saving faith are not what actually saves us. Paul and James do not contradict if we understand the relationship between saving faith (root) and outward evidence (fruit of works; cf. Eph. 2:8-10 Paul talked about works). Jesus was full of grace and revealed God's grace. Do not reduce Him to a legalist. We no longer sacrifice animals. Do you really think it was animal sacrifice and circumcision that saved people? If so, then there are many nominally baptized ungodly people that you should include with the people of God (nope).

 

[GodsfreeWill]

I did not do a search. This was off the top of my head. Apart from Mid-Acts, I have never heard scholars or believers question God's grace from Genesis to Revelation.

Well maybe they should since you cannot give em one verse where Christ speaks about grace. I'm not too interested in the "scholars" right now Godrulz, but the bible and if you can defend what you're saying biblically. So far, I'm not convinced in the least.

John 3 does not talk about works nor baptism.

Actually it does. Some argue that being born of water is water baptism, an issue to which I remain unsettled. For now, I hold that being born of the Spirit included water baptism. When we read the greater context of the gospels and the beginning of the book of Acts, we see that water baptism came BEFORE the giving of the Spirit. The FIRST time we see the Spirit given BEFORE water baptism was Acts 9 with Paul's salvation and Acts 10 with the salvation of Cornelius and his household. (Hey, what do you know, another significant change taking place in the middle of the book of Acts!)

Jesus said the work (singular) of God (in response to the question about which workS are necessary for salvation) is to believe on God and the one whom He sent.

Actually, you should read it again, because you are quite mistaken. Nowhere in John 3 does Christ say you must believe on His death, burial and resurrection for the saving of your sins. Believing on Him who God sent was believing on Him as the promised Messiah, and believing what He taught. Remember, both John the baptist and Christ commanded baptism for salvation in Mark1:4 and 16:16. BTW, another challenge for you. If you indeed believe the gospel is believing that Jesus Christ died, was buried and rose as Paul puts it in 1 Cor. 15, then can you show me one place in the entire Bible outside of the Pauline epistles where this gospel is preached. Again, I can't find a single one.

You are ignoring entire passages that emphasize faith (which is linked to grace since it is not of works) that are non-Pauline.

I'm not ignoring these. Again, as i stated in a post above, man has always been saved by faith. Faith in what? is the obvious next question, and you mistakenly believe that WHAT they have faith in has never changed. God has changed the way He asks man to show his faith many times biblically. Noah showed his faith by building an ark which was credited to him for righteousness. Noah didn't show his faith by believing that one day Christ would die for him.

Paul's didactic passages also build a case for OT faith, apart from works. Why ignore these?

You may be referring to Romans 4, which again doesn't help your case. Abram was accounted righteous before God by FAITH ALONE, but how did Abram show his faith? Did he believe that Christ would one day die for him? NO! He had faith that his seed would be like the stars of the sky. Read Gen. 15:6 which Paul quotes in Rom. 4. After Abram tried to fulfill God's unconditional covenant by himself through his fleshtrip wth Hagar, God instituted the covenant of circumcision in Gen. 17 with the cutting of the foreskin showing no confidence in the flesh. Beginning here, circumcision was necessary for salvation, which could be why God sought Moses to kill him when he would not circumcise his son. In Gen. 22, God again asked Abraham to show faith, but now he was to show faith in an action, or a work, by sacrificing his son Isaac. To this James refers back to, as James was illustrating salvation by faith PLUS works. James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

Paul's mention of David in Romans 4, refers to God gracing him out when he should have been put to death for committing adultery. David was saved from death by an act of God's grace.

 

[GodsfreeWill]

So grace and faith are still the grounds/conditions of salvation.

Yes, BUT God has asked man to show their faith in many ways, something you cannot seem to see for whatever reason.

The evidences of saving faith are not what actually saves us.

In this dispensation, no.

Paul and James do not contradict if we understand the relationship between saving faith (root) and outward evidence (fruit of works; cf. Eph. 2:8-10 Paul talked about works).

Salvation as a one time thing can only be found in the Pauline epistles. Elsewhere, you had to remain "good" until the end.

Jesus was full of grace and revealed God's grace.

This doesn't negate that He commanded water baptism for salvation.

Do not reduce Him to a legalist. We no longer sacrifice animals.

Congratulations Godrulz, in this statement (whether you realize it ro not) you claim to be a dispensationalist. You're right, we no longer sacrifice animals because changes the way He askd man to show his faith. Did you know that Christ commanded the sacrifice of animals even AFTER His death?

Do you really think it was animal sacrifice and circumcision that saved people?

No, it was their faith shown when they sacrificed and were circumcised. Those who sacrificed and circumcised out of faith to God, because God commanded this of them, remained in a saved state before God.

If so, then there are many nominally baptized ungodly people that you should include with the people of God (nope).

Huh? What ungodly person would go out to be baptized?