themuzicman
Well-known member
Clete said:
Oh, you wanted speculation? My guess is that Paul was chosen because he was a highly educated Pharisee with an extensive knowledge of the TNK and would be well prepared to teach new Christians about their heritage and prove from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ, as Paul did on many occasions. Paul was also well equipped to interact with the Roman culture he would encounter, since he was both a Roman citizen and from Tarsus.
Because Paul was a skilled writer and orator, and well versed in Greek. Paul's Greek writing is more elaborate and reflective of Greek style than Peter or John. Also, Greek uses the genitive "of me" (which we translate my) to reflect possession, but it also uses the same form to reflect a host of other meanings. The genitive is best described as 'descriptive' as a whole, so it is quite likely that Paul isn't making an exclusive claim to this particular gospel, but is simply referring to the same gospel that he taught them when he was with them. Even in English, if I say, "My State", I don't mean that I own the state of Michigan, but, rather, where I associate myself, as do 9 million other people.
This is one of the places where mid-acts dispies insert their own beliefs into a word that isn't warranted. Just because Paul calls is "my gospel" doesn't mean that others weren't preaching it, too.
For you to say that they are preaching different faiths says otherwise.
I never said that either was not saying what it sounds like he is saying. When you read both in context, both make perfect sense, and are perfectly compatible. It is only when you prooftext them do you get an out of context pretext.
Sorry, but you're wrong, here. James is not speaking of what it takes to be saved. James is speaking of what it means to be saved. James' whole point is that if you are saved, that MEANS that works will result. James is speaking of post-salvation actions.
Agreed.
And Paul would agree with James, as would the readers of Romans.
Romans 6
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
This is where Paul agrees with James. Our newfound faith isn't there so that we may go on sinning, but our newfound faith exists so that we might be instruments of righteousness.
Thus, just as we should not be slaves to sin by sinning, our faith ought to result in works that reflect our faith.
Same message, different audience and presentation.
You completely lost me, here.
James 1 is about asking for wisdom and living wisely.
James 2 is about living according to your faith.
James 3 is about living a life of self-control, no supposing to be teachers.
James 4 chides the audience for being quarrelsome
James 5 is further commands on moral and spiritual living.
James is not speaking about soteriology anywhere in his book. He certainly isn't building a foundational doctrine about salvation. He is writing to those who are saved about how to live as those who believe.
You really should back this up with actual exegesis, if you're going to make claims like this.
Sorry, Clete, if you want me to quote and exegete the whole book of James for you, I can, but James is NOT presenting a case for how one is saved. He's talking about how to live life after salvation.
The bible makes sense without imposing Acts 9 dispyism on it. I realize that individual verses may be read with an Acts 9 dispy spin, but when you take those verses to the larger context, they don't make sense anymore.
I don't spend hours trying to study a simple passage. I spend lots of time explaining to people like you how their proof texts don't make sense in the context, but that isn't difficult, either.
To be honest, you've made a couple of very incredible and very unsupported statements in this post. Maybe you should take some more time to show these things from the larger context of what James and Paul are saying, rather than picking verses and imposing upon them.
Michael
I suppose I am Acts 2 dispensational with a Dallas Theological Seminary (Walvoord and Pentecost) eschatology (pre-trib./pre-mill).
