ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

These tensed expressions show that God exists in an endless duration of time. The past, present, and future is meaningful to His experience. Timelessness cannot be derived from this text. He is the Beginning and End, the First and the Last. He is from everlasting to everlasting (Ps. 90:2...note the tensed reference point in the verse= 'before').

A word study on 'eternal' and 'everlasting' will bring clarity. Eternity does not mean timelessness. The pagan roots of this can be documented. The OT Hebraic view is a covenant God in history, not an abstract God in a 4th dimension.

What is your myriad of texts to support timelessness? I could guess at a few proof texts, but they would have an alternate understanding.

I do not want to believe a preconceived idea. I want to base my ideas on biblical evidence. On this topic, logical and philosophical issues come into play. Your simplistic view shows that you have not interacted with the wealth of literature that wrestles with this important subject. You believe a traditional view without understanding strengths and weaknesses of other views.

Relegating incoherence and unbiblical ideas to 'mystery' is a cop out for lazy thinking. God has given us revelation on His nature and ways. A Christian should do good science and philosophy to the glory of God.

 

[Clete]

And thats the way YOU want it to be and thats you why you believe that

Fortunately for him, that's also the way the Bible depicts God as well.

Why do you think children always, without exception, picture God as a man(with a body) in the sky? Because thats all their minds can comprehend

Jesus has a body (a physical one at that) and He is in "the sky" (i.e. heaven). I'd say the kids have it right. We are, after all, made in His image.

Im not trying to offend you..but you have an immature view of God. This view is held by those who cant comprehend more than it. You cant see how its possible how God can be timeless so you must deny tons of scripture to support your view. All you can say it that its all greek thought as if that somehow wins the argument.

Actually it does win the argument if is the truth. And I notice that you didn't bother to quote any of the "tons of Scritpure" to which you refer. The Bible very simply does not depict God as being timeless (having no time). On the contrary, He is shown to be eternal (infinite amounts of time). You have exactly nothing to show otherwise.

You have created the god of your understanding--- a man in the sky. I wish I could help you..but in my experience your type believes what he wants.

This is a lie! I've got you in a bold faced lie! You can't "help him" because you can't defend your own beliefs against his iron clad reason. Prove me wrong, I dare you.

I am not Calvin guy either--nor of the other camp. I believe freewill and Gods choice is a mystery that cannot be understood by our childlike minds. I have spent much time thinking about it but I am not so bold as many here to proclaim the mysteries of the universe.

This is intellectual laziness and incredible pridefullness; you should be ashamed of yourself! Who exactly do you think you are anyway? You think that because you can't figure something out that nobody can, it that it? Boy! You must be one smart fella, huh?
This whole post or yours disgusts me and your attitude disgusts me as well. You give Christianity a bad name and cause unbelievers to scoff and say, "Look at those stupid boobs who think they're smarter, wiser, and less "immature", than everyone else!" My own brother refuses to go to church because of people with the exact attitude that you've displayed in this post.
I urge you to repent! If you disagree with Open Theism then that's fine, tell me why. If you cannot, or will not then don't pretend that it's because I or godrulz don't want to hear it. Hearing it is precisely the reason I am here in the first place. If I am wrong then I will recant but I, like Martin Luther, will only do so if shown by Scripture and by sound reason that I am in error. To depart from my conviction by any other course would be reckless and evil.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Johnmnbvc]

The plan of redemption was in the mind of God as a contingent possibility from the beginning. It was not implemented until the certainty of the Fall. God did not create man intending or knowing that he would fall. He knew the potential of this and felt the risk was of a higher good and love than not creating or creating deterministic automatons. We, not God, are responsible for the mess.

. The Bible was not sitting in a box in heaven trillions of years ago with history already pre-recorded. His Story unfolds as the potential future becomes the fixed past through the present (the only reality).

.

Sorry but this may be dumbest thing I have ever heard. Its like you have decided all by yourself to create your own god. A god of your limited understanding.

A God who knows nothing, makes mistakes, and puts a bandaid on his blunders.

Your ridiculous example of how if God knows the 2010 superbowl winner --it would make the actions of no freewill. That is so childish in its thinking even the armanian view could answer that.

If you had a tape of last years superbowl and watched it---would that change the outcome of the game if you watched the tape before?

You just cant comprehend a God that is not in time and that's what causes you to deny the plain teaching of scripture. But if must go by reason only--Look it up--it is mathamatically impossible to exist in infinite time--causality forbids it. You simply would never arrive at the present

The only way for God to not have beginning is to not be in Time. Time is a creation of God. If there is time AND God--then time is a second god. And God if needs time---he NEEDS something to exist IN. Without time---God would not and could not exist. He is dependent

That is not the God of the bible. You obviously have not thought this through. I dont know who taught you this nonsense--but its on par with many other cult teachings.

God has always been Jesus Christ. There is no point in the life of God that he changed. God does not change--and Christ is the same yesterday and forever.

God has always known us--there is no billons of years. Years are for us to journey towards perfection. God does not journey. God IS.

There is a point in our existence where we can comprehend that we come to exist in 1963---but to God--he always knew us. God does not wait. If God waits--then God himself must be traced back in time to a beginning

We are created by God---but to God that is only a fact of knowledge--not a matter of before and after. You could look at it like this if it helps--God weaves together our freewill actions--who we are-- to accomplish his purpose. Our choosing him and him choosing us could be called a paradox of Time meeting timlessness.

In your unknowing God--a man *May be on his way to church to finally accept Christ and gets hit by a car along the way--and God say---oooppps...just missed it

 

[godrulz]

You are rejecting a straw man caricature of the Open View. Come back after you do some homework.

BTW, there is a difference between watching a video of a past Superbowl and the non-existence of a video anywhere in the universe of a game not yet played. Your analogy is specious.

 

[Johnmnbvc]

Fortunately for him, that's also the way the Bible depicts God as well.


This whole post or yours disgusts me and your attitude disgusts me as well. You give Christianity a bad name and cause unbelievers to scoff and say, "Look at those stupid boobs who think they're smarter, wiser, and less "immature", than everyone else!" My own brother refuses to go to church because of people with the exact attitude that you've displayed in this post.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You proved my point exactly. Read what you just wrote and then tell it to Christ. This is not about me being wise...its about you being childish in your comprehension of God. There is nothing wrong with saying that. Paul said to people like you many times.

Remember---no one agrees with you but a few cults. I said something to try and help you understand(later after much searching) that you are steeped in heresy--and you answer that I disgust you and give chistianity a bad name--OK. But I LOVE YOU

take care

 

[Johnmnbvc]

You are rejecting a straw man caricature of the Open View. Come back after you do some homework.

.

actually..you and the 5 people who believe this cult heresy can say "staw man" and "greek" till your blue in the face. All I can say is you'll only convert the immature minds

 

[godrulz]

You proved my point exactly. Read what you just wrote and then tell it to Christ. This is not about me being wise...its about you being childish in your comprehension of God. There is nothing wrong with saying that. Paul said to people like you many times.

Remember---no one agrees with you but a few cults. I said something to try and help you understand(later after much searching) that you are steeped in heresy--and you answer that I disgust you and give chistianity a bad name--OK. But I LOVE YOU

take care

Which cults believe this? Most Open Theists are mainstream evangelical Christians and uphold the essentials of the faith. The nature of the future is not a heaven or hell issue.

 

[godrulz]

actually..you and the 5 people who believe this cult heresy can say "staw man" and "greek" till your blue in the face. All I can say is you'll only convert the immature minds

There are many great thinkers and respected evangelicals who hold this view. You are showing your ignorance and lack credibility. Even someone like Millard Erickson (anti-Open theist) recognizes philosophical influences on the classic view.

 

[Clete]

Sorry but this may be dumbest thing I have ever heard. Its like you have decided all by yourself to create your own god. A god of your limited understanding.

Yours isn't so limited then I take it.

A God who knows nothing, makes mistakes, and puts a bandaid on his blunders.

You've lost your mind. :kookoo:
When did anyone say anything remotely like this?

Your ridiculous example of how if God knows the 2010 superbowl winner --it would make the actions of no freewill. That is so childish in its thinking even the armanian view could answer that.

Saying it doesn't make it so. Freedom requires volition, volition requires the ability to choose to do or to do otherwise. If an event is known absolutely then there is no ability to do otherwise and there is therefore no volition; no freedom of the will.

If you had a tape of last years superbowl and watched it---would that change the outcome of the game if you watched the tape before?

Can you say non-sequitor?
No one is suggesting that God does not know the past.

You just cant comprehend a God that is not in time and that's what causes you to deny the plain teaching of scripture. But if must go by reason only--Look it up--it is mathamatically impossible to exist in infinite time--causality forbids it. You simply would never arrive at the present

Our inability to comprehend eternity does not require us to accept logical contradiction. Your causality problem is solved if time does not exist.

The only way for God to not have beginning is to not be in Time.

Time is not a thing that one can be in or out of. Time is simply a frame of reference by which duration and sequence are observed. It is an idea, not a created thing with an independent existence.

Time is a creation of God.

Again, saying it doesn't make it so.

If there is time AND God--then time is a second god. And God if needs time---he NEEDS something to exist IN. Without time---God would not and could not exist. He is dependent

Time, in this context, does not exist.

That is not the God of the bible. You obviously have not thought this through. I dont know who taught you this nonsense--but its on par with many other cult teachings.

OH! Another lie! It is you who are making stuff up! What cult teaches this? Name the cult that doesn't believe in fate in one form or another.
Further, you've made all of eight posts! How could you possibly know how well godrulz has thought this stuff out?

God has always been Jesus Christ. There is no point in the life of God that he changed. God does not change--and Christ is the same yesterday and forever.

God was not always Jesus Christ the man. God was not always man. God did not always have a physical body. God was not always dead. God is not still dead.
God is always the same God and He does not change who He is. (i.e. His personality, His holiness, His character etc) but that doesn't mean that He is completely static like the stone idols which He hates.

God has always known us--there is no billons of years. Years are for us to journey towards perfection. God does not journey. God IS.

This is self-contradictory. The word "always" denotes time.

There is a point in our existence where we can comprehend that we come to exist in 1963---but to God--he always knew us. God does not wait. If God waits--then God himself must be traced back in time to a beginning

The Bible directly contradicts you here...

Hebrews 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.​

Note that this is speaking of God IN HEAVEN in terms of both time and waiting.

We are created by God---but to God that is only a fact of knowledge--not a matter of before and after. You could look at it like this if it helps--God weaves together our freewill actions--who we are-- to accomplish his purpose. Our choosing him and him choosing us could be called a paradox of Time meeting timlessness.

I just choose to call it self-contradictory and incoherent.

In your unknowing God--a man *May be on his way to church to finally accept Christ and gets hit by a car along the way--and God say---oooppps...just missed it

No one will go to Hell by accident but only because they reject salvation. God says that today is the day of salvation. Accept Christ now, or risk eternal Hell, for in the twinkling of any eye your life may be required of you. That's the message of the Bible and that's the message of Open Theism.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

You proved my point exactly. Read what you just wrote and then tell it to Christ. This is not about me being wise...its about you being childish in your comprehension of God. There is nothing wrong with saying that. Paul said to people like you many times.

Liar!
You are such a liar! I can't believe this! You call yourself a Christian? You don't know me from Adam and you've not even made the slightest attempt to refute even a single point of Open Theism or anything I've said. This makes you a hypocrite on top of being a liar! You should totally be ashamed of yourself!
And your simply saying that I am childish proves nothing. Put up or shut up. Show me how I am wrong or admit that you cannot.

Remember---no one agrees with you but a few cults. I said something to try and help you understand(later after much searching) that you are steeped in heresy--and you answer that I disgust you and give chistianity a bad name--OK. But I LOVE YOU

take care

There are literally thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands or more that believe in Open Theism. I agree that it is not main stream but since when has the truth ever been mainstream. By the way, when you intentionally make something up and say it as though you know it to be true, that's called a lie. You need to repent. You lie often!
I love you enough to tell you that you are arrogant and that your ATTITUDE disgusts me. And I said much more than just that, all of which you completely ignored. If I am steeped in so much heresy it should be easy for you to refute my arguments Biblically. I challenge you do to so.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

There is a reason Johnmn is a 'rookie' here. He lacks credibility. His forte seems to be ad hominem attacks.

 

[Clete]

There is a reason Johnmn is a 'rookie' here. He lacks credibility. His forte seems to be ad hominem attacks.

I generally try to give the new guys the benefit of the doubt but in this case I'd have to agree. The only thing he's said that even remotely comes close to making an argument is what he said about the causality problem that arrises when discussing eternity past. But other than that, he's got nothing! Or at least he's shown us nothing. He still has time to redeem himself though. I haven't given him any bad rep yet. I'll wait and see if he responds more substantively to our arguments. That's the least I can do for such a new poster.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[ChristisKing]

Liar!
You are such a liar! I can't believe this! You call yourself a Christian? You don't know me from Adam and you've not even made the slightest attempt to refute even a single point of Open Theism or anything I've said. This makes you a hypocrite on top of being a liar! You should totally be ashamed of yourself!

Clete, why is it that anytime your errors are pointed out to you that you:

Feel the need,
To scream?

You attack, lash out and name call, anyone who points out error's in your belief system. And if they totally and publicly refute your errors at any point so much so that even you can't scream it away you switch strategies by claiming that it really doesn't matter anyway or its really someting you didn't believe anyway.

Why don't you address the issues instead of the people making you think?

 

[Battuta]

godrulz,

What is OSAS?

PLATHOUA
Please Label Acronyms To Help Out Us Amateurs.

 

[Clete]

Clete, why is it that anytime your errors are pointed out to you that you:

Feel the need,
To scream?

I didn't scream and he didn't point out any error. Would you care to make an attempt to do so yourself?

You attack, lash out and name call, anyone who points out error's in your belief system. And if they totally and publicly refute your errors at any point so much so that even you can't scream it away you switch strategies by claiming that it really doesn't matter anyway or its really someting you didn't believe anyway.

What error has been pointed out? All I see is a bunch a condescending, arrogant lies.

Why don't you address the issues instead of the people making you think?

This is a lie on your part as well. First of all his intent wasn't to make anyone think, he said so himself...

I believe freewill and Gods choice is a mystery that cannot be understood by our childlike minds. I have spent much time thinking about it but I am not so bold as many here to proclaim the mysteries of the universe.​

And I did address the issue. I responded to each and every point that he made as he made it, as I have now done with you. I am not screaming and am not angry (although I was angry at him). Tell me, which point did he make that I didn't respond too directly, or did you make this post in hopes of discrediting me on merely an emotional level without a drip of substance? I don't deny that I was harsh toward him but he deserved it. He was making stuff up as he went and made himself look like the ignorant, arrogant fool that I proclaimed him to be. If he changes his attitude, so will I. Until then he can expect for me to call him on it when he makes stuff up out of whole cloth and then attempts to pass it off as established fact and when he tries to tell me that I'm thinking too much and that this stuff can't be figured out by my little pea sized brain; that I just have to live with logical contradiction and completely incoherent nonsense in order to believe in the true God. That's so incredibly arrogant and ridiculous; I'm sitting here even now in disbelief that anyone could sleep at night as a Christian and believe that crap.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

OSAS is Once Saved Always Saved.

It took me a while the first time I saw that one too! :chuckle:
I read four or five posts the first time I saw "OSAS" used, and I could not figure out what the heck anyone was talking about. For some reason that one just isn't very intuitive.

 

[godrulz]

Clete, why is it that anytime your errors are pointed out to you that you:

Feel the need,
To scream?

You attack, lash out and name call, anyone who points out error's in your belief system. And if they totally and publicly refute your errors at any point so much so that even you can't scream it away you switch strategies by claiming that it really doesn't matter anyway or its really someting you didn't believe anyway.

Why don't you address the issues instead of the people making you think?

I do not think someone's ignorance or incoherence makes them a liar. Liars intend to deceive with falsehood. If they are believing a lie themselves, it does not make them a liar.

 

[Johnmnbvc]

Liar!
You are such a liar! I can't believe this! You call yourself a Christian? You don't know me from Adam and you've not even made the slightest attempt to refute even a single point of Open Theism or anything I've said. This makes you a hypocrite on top of being a liar! You should totally be ashamed of yourself!
And your simply saying that I am childish proves nothing. Put up or shut up. Show me how I am wrong or admit that you cannot.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Oh..I feel so sorry for you. I will pray for you.It seems your life is just slobbering around in the mud. There are so many like you--so lost with an angry spirit. Showing no love..no restraint. Shouting out devils words--doing the accusers work for him.

By your words you proved what you really are. I know what its like to be immatue in Christ. I pray that your just a youngling. I've been though this before--I know what its like.

And no I wont put up--you know the text--the truth has been preached for 2000 years. I wont go down in the mud with you. It is obvious that people have already put up the text for you many times--so you can have you lustful fun. I thought a decent way at to help you was to help you see why you would believe such a heresy

23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

[Agape4Robin]

I guess it boils down to this then.......who's Will do we value most of all? Who's Will is more important? Obviously it's God's Will.

So then, if our Will lines up with His Will, only then are we truly free. Only then do we experience "free" will. With out Christ (God) we are nothing but slaves. We serve either God our Father, or Satan our father. We cannot serve two masters. If flesh drives our will then we serve the devil, but if the Spirit drives our will, then we serve Christ. We are not our own, remember? We are bought with a price. We owe Him our very being....all that we are or ever will be! We should not be concerned with our will but the will of God and His only should we be anxious to do.

If you wish to concern yourselves with these pithy arguements about "free will" and use analogies like next year's superbowl........then your free will serves your flesh. You should think about whom it is you are really serving...........

 

[ChristisKing]

I do not think someone's ignorance or incoherence makes them a liar. Liars intend to deceive with falsehood. If they are believing a lie themselves, it does not make them a liar.

I couldn't agree more...it seems to be more of a manifestation of something a bit deeper, like the running out of ideas and the inability to defend unorthodox "open view" beliefs. Don't you think?

All I see is a bunch a condescending, arrogant lies. This is a lie on your part as well. Liar! You are such a liar! I can't believe this! You call yourself a Christian? This makes you a hypocrite on top of being a liar! ... that's called a lie. You need to repent. You lie often!