ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[lee_merrill]

If you don't rejoice at God's will.. then what? You think God is bad for doing his will?

You were saying as far as I can tell that I relish ruin and slaughter, Patman. Why then the air of injured innocence? Of course God doesn't "afflict from the heart the children of men", nor should I delight in this either.

"If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune
or gloated over the trouble that came to him..." (Job 31:29)

Nor should Job do this, nor, by God's grace, should we.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Bob Hill]

Elected4ever,

I never thought that I would ever agree with you 100%, but I sure do on this:

When a manufacturer makes a product and that product injures someone because of the misuse by the person who bought the product, is the manufacture responsible for the owners misuse? The manufacture releases control of the product into the hands of its owner and the owner is responsible for the use of the product.

God made man.
Man is an independent agent by design.
God releases control of the body into the hands of a man.
Man misuses his free agency and body.
Man is responsible, Not God.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

Elected4ever,

I never thought that I would ever agree with you 100%, but I sure do on this:


In Christ,
Bob Hill

Thank you. I really ought to try to be more congenial in the few areas that we do disagree.. Sometimes I can be such a knot head and for to combative. It is not that I dislike you. Sometimes I am just a hard person to like I guess.

 

[Bob Hill]

Originally Posted by Bob Hill

God is all powerful. He can make anything that He thinks is important, happen exactly the way He wants it.

I have to agree that God “He can make anything that He thinks is important, happen exactly the way He wants it.”

God is, ultimately, in control of the universe and planet Earth. He is all powerful, loving, and caring. I think we are in agreement on these things.

Originally Posted by Lee
Except when his plan fails, and his expectations are disappointed, though?

No! When his plan fails, and his expectations are disappointed, it is only because He allows it. If it were something that interfered with His ultimate purposes, He would impede that activity.

Open Theism does try and have it both ways (as also shown by the recent insistence that God does not change his plan, only he changes his mind).

God has an eternal plan that no one can change – He won’t let it happen! There are many minor things that God allows man to do. Many of these have been declared in God’s Word as sin.

And if God sometimes changes his mind, then we need not always trust God's counsel, is this not correct?

Incorrect!

Thus it will not always be best to follow the Lord's leading, events might turn out better with another choice, even from God's perspective.

We have God’s Word, the Bible. It is our book to follow. The Pauline Epistles were written to the Body of Christ, not the Circumcision Believers. Some of Paul’s early epistles have aspects that have disappeared, but they are told what has passed away in his later epistles.

Originally Posted by Bob Hill

Everything is already decided from here to eternity by Calvinists.

The Bible shows us that we actually have choices.

I do believe that believers can really choose within God's will, and there is real freedom in Christ, so this means God does not make every decision.

God bless you,
Lee

Lee,

I think we are pretty much in agreement.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

lee_merrill

Hi Pastor Hill,

Originally Posted by Bob Hill

What did have in mind when He said in Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

lee_merrill
Yet this is actually "Into my heart," are we to conclude that God did not think of even the possibility that Judah would sin in this way? The thought of this possibility did not in any way occur to him?

And what I would really need from you now please, is not more questions, but more answers! As in these pending questions from the discussion ...

Originally Posted by Bob Hill

God is all powerful. He can make anything that He thinks is important, happen exactly the way He wants it.

lee_merrill
Except when his plan fails, and his expectations are disappointed, though?

Open Theism does try and have it both ways (as also shown by the recent insistence that God does not change his plan, only he changes his mind).

And if God sometimes changes his mind, then we need not always trust God's counsel, is this not correct?

Thus it will not always be best to follow the Lord's leading, events might turn out better with another choice, even from God's perspective.

Originally Posted by Bob Hill

Everything is already decided from here to eternity by Calvinists.

The Bible shows us that we actually have choices.

Lee
I do believe that believers can really choose within God's will, and there is real freedom in Christ, so this means God does not make every decision.

God bless you,
Lee

I agree with everything you wrote. This is scary!

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

If God knows something, our God could not be wrong. If God knew the whole future, it could not change from what He knew in one atom. That would mean all time would be frozen.

However, not once does the Bible say that God declares the future where He does not determine it, cause it to happen, or do it.

God doesn’t know the future unless He acts on things or people to make it happen. God could, and sometimes does predict the future, because He makes what He predicts happen.

For example, notice how God handles something that He counsels. Isa 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

It’s not that “Time is a creation of God, therefore it does not control Him.” that matters. God has always existed and always will. Time is onerous to us because we have to sleep, work, punch a clock-all kinds of things that time frustrates. I’m almost 74. Time and its consequences of aging are a bummer. I’m beginning to be unable to remember certain things and even people.

I thought, at one time, that God was outside of time. I believed things I was taught by good guys who taught me a lot about God. I didn’t know that many of their ideas were from Greek philosophy. I soon saw that the Bible didn’t corroborate what I was taught and believed.

What I did find from studying the Bible myself was this: There are many Scripture passages that say that God changes His mind, answers prayer or repents.

That’s why I believe there truly is an Open View theology that shows us the truth about our God.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[patman]

You were saying as far as I can tell that I relish ruin and slaughter, Patman. Why then the air of injured innocence? Of course God doesn't "afflict from the heart the children of men", nor should I delight in this either.

"If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune
or gloated over the trouble that came to him..." (Job 31:29)

Nor should Job do this, nor, by God's grace, should we.

Blessings,
Lee

According to you, "ruin and slaughter" are God's will.

You must "relish" if you follow his will...

 

[patman]

I don't think God would have had them eat of the tree... ever. I heard a (reformed, oddly enough) professor say that God's intent seems to be to teach Adam and Eve about the nature and order of creation, and eventually about what is right and good for them to do (and, by implication what not to do.)

The tree would simply have been a symbol of God's sovereignty, even among men with free will, because the only reason to not eat of the tree is that God said so, and said that death would result for anyone who did.

Hopefully that answers your question.

Muz

Thanks Muz.

I think I am going to agree in part and in part conclude that Adam and Eve would have live by the "law" of love, as we all would have had no one sinned.

Someone would have sinned tho, sooner or later, for them they get the law, and the grace that comes from Christ's death. It all seems to fit the bigger picture, I think..

 

[patman]

"If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune
or gloated over the trouble that came to him..." (Job 31:29)

Nor should Job do this, nor, by God's grace, should we.

Blessings,
Lee

I hesitate to post the following. I wanted to in my last post, but was afraid of starting another endless discussion with you...

But I think this point will help you.

You took offense when I pointed out how you would praise God for his doing "his will" against the "slaughtered innocent family."

You took offense. Why did you? Because you recognize how terrible it is to take joy in the slaughtering of innocent.

We all could see you bare, and that insulted you. You probably thought "How mean to insinuate that I would praise god for such a terrible thing. what kind of a person do they think I am? I would never do that."

Are you better than God, Lee? Shouldn't God be insulted by your claim when you say "It was his will to do this terrible thing?" Is it OK to insult God by saying he would bring about this evil, but wrong to say you praise God for it?

Are you following me? You insult God by calling him the author of this evil and you feel insulted when we point out how you praise his actions.

I am at a loss.. Do you agree with God's "will" or not? Do you praise him for it or not? You seem to. But when I point it out you do, you are insulted?

Why?

It is because your heart is convicted as you realize how wrong it is to even praise God for doing such things. Then you take the above scripture to show me how wrong it is and prove how we shouldn't praise him for it.

Let it be said through out TOL: "Far be it from Lee to rejoice in evil on innocence. Yet, be it exactly that God bring the evil about. Lets just make sure lee looks good no matter what. Even if God looks bad regardless."

 

[lee_merrill]

I think we are pretty much in agreement.

Glad to hear it! I appreciate your reply...

According to you, "ruin and slaughter" are God's will.

You must "relish" if you follow his will...

Jeremiah 17:15-16 They keep saying to me, "Where is the word of the Lord? Let it now be fulfilled!" I have not run away from being your shepherd; you know I have not desired the day of despair.

And the word of the Lord was judgment that the Lord would bring, ruin and even slaughter, and Jeremiah did not run away from declaring all this, nor did he desire the day of despair.

God bless you,
Lee

 

[Philetus]

I think that had Adam and Eve eaten from the tree of life after eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and had to live forever with that ill gotten knowledge, life would have become unbearable for human beings. Just think: after sinning once Adam and Eve hid from God and tried to cover their nakedness and shame, something they never felt the need to do in God’s presence before. Now imagine living that way for eternity in this fallen world as sin and its consequences continue to increase. Imagine living in the world as it is right now with no hope of an eschatological cosmic intervention by the Son of Man. Even with the hope we have in Christ the Bible says that if the days were not cut short by God, no flesh would survive. Unbearable. Now in Christ, we look forward to new heaven and new earth. Bearable, indeed! God is good! All of the time!

Maranatha,
Philetus

 

[Philetus]

The furute is no longer what it once was.

 

[patman]

I think that had Adam and Eve eaten from the tree of life after eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and had to live forever with that ill gotten knowledge, life would have become unbearable for human beings. Just think: after sinning once Adam and Eve hid from God and tried to cover their nakedness and shame, something they never felt the need to do in God’s presence before. Now imagine living that way for eternity in this fallen world as sin and its consequences continue to increase. Imagine living in the world as it is right now with no hope of an eschatological cosmic intervention by the Son of Man. Even with the hope we have in Christ the Bible says that if the days were not cut short by God, no flesh would survive. Unbearable. Now in Christ, we look forward to new heaven and new earth. Bearable, indeed! God is good! All of the time!

Maranatha,
Philetus

A lot of SVers present the situation "what if adam and eve ate from the tree of life first then the tree of knowledge?" As if it presents a problem to the OV. The idea , they imply, proves there was a set plan to get them to eat the tree of knowledge...


But all I can say is so what.. Adam & Eve could have ate it, but after being kicked out, no one else could. So we have two humans who could live forever... The rest would die...

I also recall God telling them they would die. I don't remember that being conditional. "Adam and Eve, if you eat of the tree of knowledge, you will surly die.... OH, unless you eat of the tree of life first..." No, the warning was not conditional. They would die regardless of what they did had they ate from the tree of knowledge.

The S.V. argument assumes God can't bring death on someone who ate of the tree of life. God laughs at this. Their eating of the tree of life makes no difference, had they ate of the tree of knowledge, death was unavoidable. God can easily end a life, even one that ate of the tree of life...

 

[elected4ever]

A lot of SVers present the situation "what if adam and eve ate from the tree of life first then the tree of knowledge?" As if it presents a problem to the OV. The idea , they imply, proves there was a set plan to get them to eat the tree of knowledge...


But all I can say is so what.. Adam & Eve could have ate it, but after being kicked out, no one else could. So we have two humans who could live forever... The rest would die...

I also recall God telling them they would die. I don't remember that being conditional. "Adam and Eve, if you eat of the tree of knowledge, you will surly die.... OH, unless you eat of the tree of life first..." No, the warning was not conditional. They would die regardless of what they did had they ate from the tree of knowledge.

The S.V. argument assumes God can't bring death on someone who ate of the tree of life. God laughs at this. Their eating of the tree of life makes no difference, had they ate of the tree of knowledge, death was unavoidable. God can easily end a life, even one that ate of the tree of life...

You are not thinking that scenario through or you have a misconception of death. Death means separation. Did not God separate Adam from His presents the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was and is the death.

It would not matter if they had eaten of the tree of life because God would still have separated them from Himself and man would have lived forever without God. No person born to Adam and Eve would have ever died. Wrap your mind around that for a moment. The removal of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and the tree of life was an act of mercy on God's part.

 

[godrulz]

You are not thinking that scenario through or you have a misconception of death. Death means separation. Did not God separate Adam from His presents the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was and is the death.

It would not matter if they had eaten of the tree of life because God would still have separated them from Himself and man would have lived forever without God. No person born to Adam and Eve would have ever died. Wrap your mind around that for a moment. The removal of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and the tree of life was an act of mercy on God's part.

Death is separation.

Physical death (separation of spirit-soul from body)

Spiritual death (relational separation from a holy God due to sin)

Eternal/second death (separation of sinful man from a holy God's presence for eternity)

 

[Philetus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philetus

I think that had Adam and Eve eaten from the tree of life after eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and had to live forever with that ill gotten knowledge, life would have become unbearable for human beings. Just think: after sinning once Adam and Eve hid from God and tried to cover their nakedness and shame, something they never felt the need to do in God’s presence before. Now imagine living that way for eternity in this fallen world as sin and its consequences continue to increase. Imagine living in the world as it is right now with no hope of an eschatological cosmic intervention by the Son of Man. Even with the hope we have in Christ the Bible says that if the days were not cut short by God, no flesh would survive. Unbearable. Now in Christ, we look forward to new heaven and new earth. Bearable, indeed! God is good! All of the time!

Maranatha,
Philetus

Patman: A lot of SVers present the situation "what if adam and eve ate from the tree of life first then the tree of knowledge?" As if it presents a problem to the OV. The idea , they imply, proves there was a set plan to get them to eat the tree of knowledge...


But all I can say is so what.. Adam & Eve could have ate it, but after being kicked out, no one else could. So we have two humans who could live forever... The rest would die...

I also recall God telling them they would die. I don't remember that being conditional. "Adam and Eve, if you eat of the tree of knowledge, you will surly die.... OH, unless you eat of the tree of life first..." No, the warning was not conditional. They would die regardless of what they did had they ate from the tree of knowledge.

The S.V. argument assumes God can't bring death on someone who ate of the tree of life. God laughs at this. Their eating of the tree of life makes no difference, had they ate of the tree of knowledge, death was unavoidable. God can easily end a life, even one that ate of the tree of life...

I don’t think the S.V. has a snowball’s chance in the oven of offering any help or hope for fallen humanity. And while it might be fun to speculate like E4E said, it’s a moot point in that they ate from the TOTKOGAE and the tree of life (what ever that meant at the time) is off limits to humanity since the fall. It’s merciful that God doesn’t make us live in this fallen world for ever and ever with no hope of escape. I’m with Paul, in Christ it is hard to decide which is better … staying here or going to be with the Lord. For us who believe it is a win/win proposition.

Philetus

 

[patman]

You are not thinking that scenario through or you have a misconception of death. Death means separation. Did not God separate Adam from His presents the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was and is the death.

It would not matter if they had eaten of the tree of life because God would still have separated them from Himself and man would have lived forever without God. No person born to Adam and Eve would have ever died. Wrap your mind around that for a moment. The removal of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and the tree of life was an act of mercy on God's part.

I think God meant both forms of death. Both spiritual and physical.

That is why Paul talks about why we die even though we didn't eat of the tree in Romans 1 (I think, no bible here at the moment to check)...

 

[godrulz]

Physical depravity/death is a consequence of the Fall felt by all men due to Adam's sin.

Moral depravity/spiritual death is individual as each person sins and becomes objects of wrath by nature (we form a sinful nature as we sin; we are not born with an Adamic nature since sin is not a substance nor genetic; sin is lawlessness, selfishness, rebellion, volitional).

Eternal death is for those who reject God and His plan of redemption in Christ.

 

[Philetus]

Physical depravity/death is a consequence of the Fall felt by all men due to Adam's sin.

Moral depravity/spiritual death is individual as each person sins and becomes objects of wrath by nature (we form a sinful nature as we sin; we are not born with an Adamic nature since sin is not a substance nor genetic; sin is lawlessness, selfishness, rebellion, volitional).

Eternal death is for those who reject God and His plan of redemption in Christ.

You still owe me a cookie.

 

[Bob Hill]

Because the future is open, we who are believers in Christ, believe that the Lord Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. Christ died for our sins so we can go to heaven.

But those who reject the finished work of Christ go to Hades until the great white throne judgment. Then they are cast into the lake of fire.

I believe that if we die before the rapture, we would be in heaven until it took place.

After the rapture, we will be with the Lord forever.

To break it down chronologically, because the dispensation we are in is a mystery, the next event that will occur in God’s prophetic program is the rapture of the body of Christ. But since our theism is open, any one of a number of things could still happen.

The rapture of the “mystery body” is also a mystery. That would mean that the rapture is not counted in the resurrections of prophecy. Further, no one but God has a clue when the rapture will take place.

Waiting for the Shout!!
Bob Hill