Clete said:
This is not necessarily so. There are countless things that are true physically that are not true spiritually. The Newtonian laws, for example do not apply to things spiritual, they are nonetheless truth. There is no increase in entropy with God but entropy is inescapable in any physical system. God creates the physical out of nothing and that is possible precisely because the law of the conservation of matter and energy does not apply to God and that is true precisely because He is not physical.
So, when you say "spiritual truth" you mean that it is true in the spiritual realm?
No that isn't the way it works Muz! If this is the way we interpreted the Bible then anything we wanted to believe could be found in the pages of the Bible. You are forcing the text to mean something other than what it says because your theology is in conflict with the plain reading of it.
Let's dispense of this right now. There is
no scriptural basis for saying that spiritual death literally means separation from God. Neither does "spiritual death" literally mean "separation from God." "Spiritual", as you've said, would refer to a spirit. Death would have to mean "cease to function." There is simply no way that you can say with intellectual honesty that "separation from God" is a literal meaning for "spiritual death." None. Your continued assertion does not make it so.
As I said before, the spirit of man was breathed into Adam, and only after that happened did Adam come to life. Mankind is the only being that did not come to life by God's spoken word. We are kept alive by the spiritual life breathed into Adam and passed on to us. Had Adam spiritually died in a literal sense, then that which was keeping him physically alive would have ceased to function, and he would have physically died, too.
I know this shakes at the foundation of your theology, but you have to look at this from the point of view of the text of Genesis. The threat of death in Genesis 2 is literal physical death. There simply isn't any way around it. Did God break His word? No. If you read further in Genesis 3, you find that God bars the way to the Tree of Life, so that Adam will not live forever, but will literally and physically die.
That's your problem not mine and I will not let you turn it into my problem by tacitly conceding the validity of this argument by engaging it on your terms. You will either give me a Biblical principle which demands that this passage be taken to mean something other than what it says or I will leave the plain meaning of it in tact and let it eat your theology for lunch.
The biblical principle is right here in the text.
19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
This reflects the Pauline doctrine of our identification with CHrist's physical death being our separation from the law. In Romans, he uses the analogy of a woman bound to her husband as long as he is married:
Romans 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Thus, our identification with Christ's death frees us from the bonds of the law. Did Paul literally or symbolically die? In fact, it was Christ who literally died
on our behalf, and so Paul's death, here, is symbolic of his identification with Christ's death.
Notice the close tie to Romans 6 in Gal 2:20-21:
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him], in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Notice that we are "united with Him in the LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH." Symbolically, united, not literally dying! How is this accomplished? Symbollically
through baptism, which identifies us with His death, burial and resurrection, so that we might participate with Him in mastery over death in our resurrection!
Notice:
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [comes] through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
HOW has Paul been crucified with Christ?
In Baptism, as he says in Romans 6, we are united in the
likeness of His death, and, as we see in Romans 6, the life that Christ now lives, He lives to God, and, in the same way, being identified and united with Him (symbolically through baptism) in His death, our physical life is lived by faith in the Son of God, and
not through the law (which is the problem the Galatians were having), or else CHrist died needlessly.
Paul speaks in these terms here because He is dealing with Jews who were insisting that you had to obey the Old Covenant in order to be saved, and is using symbolism the Galatians already understood, because they had been baptized and understood the symbolism found therein, having been taught as Paul wrote the Romans about the same subject.
Thus, the "principle" by which I interpret this as such is first and foremost the text of Galatians as context, the text of Genesis regarding the fall, and Pauline doctrine as expressed in His other writings.
You've not done any such thing Muz! All you done is stretched you same assumption across a whole chapter rather than confining that assumption to the last two verses. It is your assumption (i.e. your theology) that is rendering this passage symbolic not the context. The context is clear enough and I am content to let it speak for itself.
The problem is that you're incoherant as you do so.
I really don't care if you read just the last two verses, the whole chapter, the whole book or the whole of Paul's writings. The message is consistently the same and there is no need to take Gal. 2:20 as a figure of speech. It very simply is not a figure, it means exactly what it says and until you give me good reason to believe otherwise, the weight of the Scripture itself is its own best argument.
Let's see how you deal with Pauline thought as I've drawn it out for you. There IS a need to take Gal 2:20 as symbolic, because Paul takes this concept as symbolic in his other writings, namely Romans 6 and 7.
If it is figurative then what does it mean?
I don't use figurative.
If it is symbolic then what does it symbolize?
As Paul says: We are united with Him in the
likeness of His death. Our crucifixion is symbolic of our identification with Christ's physical death in baptism, in which we idendify with his burial and resurrection. If this is a spiritual identification, then there is no physical burial
nor physical resurrection, which presents a
major problem in Pauline thought, namely 1 Cor 15.
If you want to quibble about terms then fine but all of my questions are valid in either case. What Biblical principle are you employing to render Gal. 2:20 symbolic?
Pauline doctrine.
Thank you for arguing my side of the debate.
There is nothing here about spiritual death.
As I said, all you are doing is rending the entire chapter symbolic and then on that basis declaring verses 19 and 20 symbolic. It does not work that way. You have to have some reason for rending to the text in some way other than its plain meaning.
Other than the fact that a literal reading doesn't make any sense? How about the reasoning that you're taking spiritual death as symbolic as well, just in a different way?
Does the law not bring SPRITUAL death just as did the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I know that you deny that there is a connection but there very clearly is.
There is no such connection at all. THere is
no sense in Genesis 1-3 that the death God spoke of was anything but physica. And, in fact, Adam did die.
The Law is nothing more than a continuation of the Tree's ministry; it is the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Law being nailed to the tree and Christ having died in our place on that tree is precisely what frees us from the requirement of the Law.
It did more than that.
But our flesh (that is our physical flesh) has not yet been redeemed and nor will this Earthly flesh ever be (1 Corinthians 15:50).
1 Cor 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the [glory] of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable [body], it is raised an imperishable [body]; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual [body]. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
Again, the context is going to bite you, here. Paul is referring to our transformation at the resurrection. He has drawn a contrast using flesh and spirit between our corrupted, sinful selves and our future, incorruptible selves. In fact, the phrase "flesh and blood" is specifically mentioned as "human nature" in the GNT dictionary. Again, Paul isn't speaking of this literal flesh and our literal blood, but that our broken nature, corrupted by the knowledge of Good and Evil, will be restored, and we will gain eternal life.
If we read verse 50 as you wish us to read it, then you're in danger of denying a physical, bodily resurrection, because our resurrected selves will be the same kind of physical flesh and blood as we have now! This is
one of the major points of 1 Cor 15! If you don't believe in a physical, fleshly resurrection, then
there is nothing to hope for!
1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found [to be] false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
Thus this truth MUST be a spiritual one because if this spiritual truth is not true now, then why are we free from the law now?
Because our bondage is to the law, not to the spirit. The tree only brought the
KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which means that we are
bound to live by it, and death comes through the wrath of God in judgment for those who do NOT live by it! Bondage to the law
is terminated in death, not established in it! we are freed from the law by identifying with Christ's death, as we saw in Romans!
You aren’t suggesting that we are going to one day be free from the law for righteousness sake are you? Surely not! We are righteous right now! But not in ourselves but IN CHRIST! Again, we to recon this to be true right now by faith. This is central to the whole of Paul’s entire message and ministry.
Yes, but we are freed because we identify with Christ's death, symbolically embracing His death in baptism, and likewise embracing his burial and resurrection in the same ritual. If we are not united with Him in the likeness of His death (Romans 6), then we are not free from the law, either.
None of this addresses any kind of literal spiritual death. Spiritual death refers to the wrath of eternal judgment which hangs over those who have not believed.
JUST READ IT! Read as much of the chapter or book as you like; it means what it sound like it means. It is not symbolic or figurative it is merely spiritual rather than physical.
Sorry, I don't just read two verses without reading the context with it. When you read them in context, and consider Pauline doctrine, you find a very different reading than one that doesn't consider proper hermeneutical principles.
I would like for you to find any third grader in the world, including ones that attend public school that would read those two passages and take it to mean that they should hang themselves in order to be in compliance with Biblical teaching. Just one. Any one at all will do. Just give me their name and phone number so I can speak with them.
I figured you'd miss the point. It was a good effort.
The point being that if there is no good reason to take a passage to mean something other than what it seems to say then to do otherwise is faulty exegesis. The first rule of Biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible means what it says. Wouldn't you agree?
If there was a sensibal, biblically sound basis for a plain reading, then you might have a point. But there is not. The fact is that you continue to harbor a symbolic meaning for "spiritual death", although you continue to be blind to it.
I think I've pretty clearly shown from Paul what he intends in this particular passage, both his purpose in writing it, and the basis for my understanding of it.
P.S. My previous post to this one seems to me to be a bit overly harsh. It is not my intention to be insulting and so if I get over zealous in my argumentation please don't take it personally. I'll do my best to stay away from any terms of a person nature like “idiotic” or “stupidity” or the like. We can disagree on this point, even strongly so, without going to blows over it. :thumb:
God bless you!
Emotions cloud us all at times. Consider our fellowship to be in tact, without slight, brother. I hope I have not offended you in any way soas to incur your response.
Muz
