ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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My guess is Bob misunderstood Lee's post.
patman
Active member
Hi Lee, when you said "Yet we read, "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away...", and "shall we receive good from the Lord, and not trouble?", and Job did not sin when he said this. Yet you say I sin when I say this," I asked you to fill in the blank for a question.
You said:
Which amounts to:
God cause, uses, and orchestrates sin to bring good, but does not author sin.
I do not see a difference between author, orchestrate, and causing in context to the sentence above. I wonder how you can really say the three are different.
I did agree that you say he uses sin for good... as stated by me before, but only those sins already committed.
So now that we have estableshed where we both stand in short simple statements, let me now say that I was right in saying you sin in what you say above. But you do not sin by quoting the verse, "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away...", and "shall we receive good from the Lord, and not trouble?", and Job did not sin when he said this."
The two statements are very different. God does give and he does take away. He does it in righteousness and justice. Job was right. And God does send trouble, Job was right again. He didn't sin when he said this. BUT he does not author, cause, or orchestrate trouble in the form of sin. EVER, this is what I have always said to you.
You said:
lee_merrill said:
Which amounts to:
God cause, uses, and orchestrates sin to bring good, but does not author sin.
I do not see a difference between author, orchestrate, and causing in context to the sentence above. I wonder how you can really say the three are different.
I did agree that you say he uses sin for good... as stated by me before, but only those sins already committed.
So now that we have estableshed where we both stand in short simple statements, let me now say that I was right in saying you sin in what you say above. But you do not sin by quoting the verse, "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away...", and "shall we receive good from the Lord, and not trouble?", and Job did not sin when he said this."
The two statements are very different. God does give and he does take away. He does it in righteousness and justice. Job was right. And God does send trouble, Job was right again. He didn't sin when he said this. BUT he does not author, cause, or orchestrate trouble in the form of sin. EVER, this is what I have always said to you.
sentientsynth
New member
*deleted due to childish disrespect.
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ApologeticJedi
New member
So to be a Calvinist, one must believe that the only way to bring about good, is to cause sin? Isn't that a bit dumb? Can't you bring about good with (just for instance) more good? Heaven is supposed to be great, I wonder how much sin the Calvinist thinks must exist in heaven for it to be so great. :doh:
Some ideas are just too foolish to do anything but laugh at them.
Some ideas are just too foolish to do anything but laugh at them.
sentientsynth
New member
All of your questions can be answered by........ApologeticJedi said:
*deleted for childish disrespect.
I'm sorry, y'all. I just couldn't help myself. You may return to your normal broadcast.
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lee_merrill
New member
Hi Patman,
Yet the Lord took away, which must refer to these events…
Did the Lord not wield Assyria? “When trouble comes to a city, has the Lord not caused it?”
Hebrews 11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
Blessings,
Lee
P.S. Shall we let Bob explain what he meant?
I tried to clarify what I meant by author by the above, as in God not being the source of sin, but acting so as to bring it about, as you can control a water hose, and still not be the source of the water.
Then did God not plan the cross?
Yet Satan, did he not sin when he struck Job? Did the Sabeans not sin when they killed Job’s servants and stole from him?
Yet the Lord took away, which must refer to these events…
Did the Lord not wield Assyria? “When trouble comes to a city, has the Lord not caused it?”
No, of course not. But how can there be victory, if there is nothing to overcome? How can there be a reward, if there is nothing to reward?Apologetic Jedi said:
Hebrews 11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
Blessings,
Lee
P.S. Shall we let Bob explain what he meant?
patman
Active member
lee_merrill said:
A sin is disobeying God, in it's simplest form..
Everything Satan does is not a sin. God did not command Satan to do what he did, nor did he tell him not to. Satan did not sin in this case. God was not the source nor the author of the things that happened to Job. Satan was.
God can decide who lives and who dies. If he gives that power to Assyria, they too are not sinning by executing their God given go-ahead, which was conceived out of justice.
As for the water-hose analogy.
Saying God is watering the world with evil, is evil.
enough said.
ApologeticJedi
New member
lee_merrill said:
That's eastern mysthology, not Christianity. That's the ying-yang of Taoism.
Evil does not have to exist for good to exist.
It is true that "Evil does not have to exist for good to exist." But, can man understand good without evil as a contrast? Stars shine just as bright during the day, but cannot be seen without the contrast of the night sky. It's about God showing man what good is.ApologeticJedi said:
lee_merrill
New member
Then trying to get Job to curse God was not a sin? No, "the devil has been sinning from the beginning" (1 John 3:8).patman said:
Why then did God say he would punish the Assyrians (Isa. 10:12), after he had completed his work with Judah through these Assyrians?
Then planning the cross, and bringing it about, was evil?
"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." (Acts 4:28)
So then there can be victory, with nothing to overcome, a reward, even if there is nothing to reward?
Blessings,
Lee
sentientsynth
New member
A bit touchy, aren't we Poly? Or, have I forgotten, you shalt not speak against the High Priest?Poly said:
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sentientsynth said:
You're walking a fine line, SS. No matter how much Bob Hill might disagree with you, he's shown you and anybody else he's addressing nothing but respect. You owe him the same.
If you bring some sarcastic remark up like this again you'll be banned.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
WOW!!
I do believe that God causes sin to bring about good at times, even though the one who does the sin did not think the way God could manipulate it for good.
I also believe that God is orchestrating things, at times, even when the evil person doing it may only have his evil desire as the motivation.
I also believe God uses sin to bring about good, even though the evil person doing it is just trying to be evil.
As I pointed out 4296 & 4298, I do not believe God authors sin!!!! :devil:
In Christ,
Bob Hill
I do believe that God causes sin to bring about good at times, even though the one who does the sin did not think the way God could manipulate it for good.
I also believe that God is orchestrating things, at times, even when the evil person doing it may only have his evil desire as the motivation.
I also believe God uses sin to bring about good, even though the evil person doing it is just trying to be evil.
As I pointed out 4296 & 4298, I do not believe God authors sin!!!! :devil:
In Christ,
Bob Hill
The way you have stated it above I couldn't agree more. :up:Bob Hill said:
I think the confusing came in because patman had proposed....
And you agreed with Lee when he said he would choose all but "C".
Which would mean you were agreeing with this...
A. God causes sin to bring about good.
B. God is orchestrating sin to bring about good.
D. God uses sin to bring about good.
Given those options I can only agree with "D".
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