ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Nathon Detroit]

He was mad about Israel disobeying His prescriptive will, all according to God's decrees, obviously. I thought we went over this.

We have gone over this. And we will keep going over it so that your position is exposed over and over and over and over again as being contradictory.

According to you, God's prescriptive will, and our will, all follow God's decretive will without any variation. Therefore there really is no will outside of God's decretive will.

So when bad things happen against God's prescriptive will, it is God Himself that is willing against His own prescriptive will via His decretive will. And that (in a nut-shell) is the inconsistency in your view.

Yes, and that's God's prerogative as the Potter. Just as God ordained that He would show mercy and compassion to some and not to others. Who are you to talk back to your Potter? Shall the thing formed say to HIm that formed it, "Why have you made me this way?" Answer: No, absolutely not, because you're a pot.

Jim, you agreed that God does not make marred vessels. (of course you only agree with because it's in the Bible. Your theology clearly teaches otherwise).

In reality God takes marred vessels and has the prerogative to re-make them into something good. (that is the clear teaching in the Bible)

God DOES NOT intentionally mar vessels just so that He can later make Himself look "good", like an abusive parent that beats their child and then later buys them a toy to make themselves look "good".

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Hey Jim maybe you missed this post....

You stated on this thread that God is NOT responsible for our salvation.

If I said... "Jim Hilston says that God is NOT responsible for our salvation." would you find that libelous?

 

[godrulz]

Thx for attempting to systematically answer our posts, even if it is a feeble, non-persuasive attempt :thumb:

God gives conditions for salvation. It is NOT saving ourself if we respond to His grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-10). We did not provide nor initiate salvation. Faith is not a meritorious work. God alone saves us, but not without a response from us. Love relationships are not caused nor coerced. They are freely entered into and maintained (reciprocal), but not without God's provision and enablement/influence.

If we cannot agree on these self-evident truths, there is no hope for our dialogue (er...your monologue). In all your bluster, you miss the forest for the trees. In the end, I am convinced your view does not do justice to the great character and revelation of our God (yes, we are brothers in Christ...like it or not).

 

[Yorzhik]

It's not possible. Holding someone responsible requires holding authority and power over the one being held responsible. It is logically impossible for a character to hold the writer responsible. It is even more irrational to suppose that finite man could hold the infinite God responsible for anything.

And it is just as impossible, in exactly the same way, to write characters in a book that have free will.

A robot is no more a moral agent than a gun or a knife or a rock. How is it at all germane to this discussion?

Because a character in a book is no more a moral agent than a written computer program.

And, in the end, your son can write the story that the evil people that the author earlier in the book wrote they did everything to warrant hell go to heaven, and the hero that he wrote earlier in the book did everything right to go to heaven is tortured forever in hell?

Please explain this sentence. I could try answering what you appear to be saying, but I'd rather have a clearer understanding before taking a stab at your question.

Your son could have had his mind made up from the start that he would change what was written about the characters at the beginning of the book.

Thanks again for the reply. Have you been eating your "B" foods (Broccoli, beets, brusselsprouts, barley)?

Sigh, no. I know I'm supposed to, but I just can't do it. It's an odd philosophical problem in that I know the rewards and the costs involved, but I don't do what the good part of me wants, nor what is reasonable. It's a terrible state to be in.

 

[Yorzhik]

So if God stands by and allows evil which He knows about then He is responsible?

If God knew about the evil from before creation, and if God is the first cause of creation, then the answer is "yes, of course". Wouldn't that be obvious to you?

...if a being that knew the future exhaustively would tell you what was going to happen. Let's give this telling a random label like... I don't know... how about "prophecy"? And you decided to make these things not happen they way they were told, could you do it? Let us even say that the being that knew the future exhaustively would tell you anything about any even at any time.

How would one change the future without knowing what the current future outcome was?

Let me take my quote, but this time I'll state it clearly: ...if a being that knew the future exhaustively would tell you what was going to happen. Let's give this telling a random label like... I don't know... how about "prophecy"? And you decided to make these things not happen they way they were told, could you do it? Let us even say that the being that knew the future exhaustively would tell you anything at any time.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

FYI: This thread recently past the 40,000 views mark. Impressive! Congrats to all that participate on it.

 

[patman]

God's great purpose is the elect despite the reprobate. I've already said that God loves you more than all of them.

....

The law presents the choice to enact our free will. A test. A proof. Are any except for Jesus Christ worthy? Is man able to save himself as Pelagius asserted?

What I find amazing is that you really believe God loves anyone but the elect. You know what love is, you have read 1 Cor 13. Does it sound loving to doom billions of people?

I know you think it is their own fault, but by your statement here, You gotta see God is doing some of this. If God choses some, he rejects others, all based on his idea of the best possible future, he is making it so these people go to hell.

God "Loving" those who are damned is quite an over statement. It is like some scientist growing babies in jars to do research on, some will grow into strong people, some will die. Their death is somehow their own fault for not being "good enough," so the scientist doing the testing isn't responsible. As the scientist injects the experimental drug he knows it will kill the weaker ones. But in the Settled view, he is somehow not responsible.

 

[Bob Hill]

As I look at Open Theism, Open View Theology, or whatever it may be called, it is the view about God that I believe.

This view is about the God of the Bible, and His ability to have feelings, passion, remorse, anger, expectations, sorrow, etc.

This theology is based strictly on the Bible’s statements about our glorious God.

It is the biblical theology that shows that God gave man enough freedom to believe God when God said he may be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as his Savior because He died for him.

Open Theism also believes God has the ability to change His mind or repent about something He said He would do. He usually does this when man has done something to cause God to either repent from the harm that He said He would do, or repent from something good that He said He would for man, but because man sinned, He now says He will not do it.

It is also the answer to the Calvinistic view that God predetermines everything that has happened and will happen. We have much material on this subject on our site, biblicalanswers.com.

I learned about this position a little over 40 years ago. At that time, I knew of no one who believed it. That has dramatically changed in recent years.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[STONE]

Doesn't God have a purpose or use for the sins of man and Satan (whether God is the author of it or not)?
i.e.~
Ge 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Ex 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Ex 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
Ps 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose
1Pet 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
Da 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Mt 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Mr 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
1Pet5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Should we care more about ourselves than God? What was Job's lesson? God questions all of you who would pre-judge Him by your own standards rather than by awaiting and trusting His wisdom. How can God not want man to learn for himself of their need for God? Why would God not want to fashion a system destined for dishonor and pain to bring learned realization of life without Him? Should man be programed as a robot to love God, or learn personally the Goodness of God by the pain of separation from Him? God is not the "Father" of evil, sin, or lies, but they were certainly in His Will orchestrated for man to repent of Evil and come to a knowledge and desire for Him, else Evil would not be.

 

[Hilston]

We have gone over this. And we will keep going over it so that your position is exposed over and over and over and over again as being contradictory.

Based on what you've written in your post, you don't understand my position enough to expose anything contradictory.

According to you, God's prescriptive will, and our will, all follow God's decretive will without any variation. Therefore there really is no will outside of God's decretive will.

See what I mean? I explained this before; I'll explain it again. God's decretive will is to God's prescriptive will as a plan is to a rule. They're two different categories. The decretive will encompasses the existence and expression of the prescriptive, but they are not the same. The prescriptive regards God's commands. The decretive regards God's plans. Please try to get this. Imperatives (i.e. commands) are viewed in the Greek (and English as well) as being the grammatical mood furthest removed from reality (see Greek Grammars by Dana & Mantey or A.T. Roberston or others). The imperative mood (which corresponds to God's prescriptive will) is not viewed as representing actuality (i.e. reality) as is the indicative mood (which corresponds to God's decretive will). They are different categories.

So when bad things happen against God's prescriptive will, it is God Himself that is willing against His own prescriptive will via His decretive will. And that (in a nut-shell) is the inconsistency in your view.

There's nothing inconsistent or contradictory about God prohibiting something and decreeing that it happen. Throughout scripture we are shown examples in which God has decreed that which is contrary to His prescriptions for His own good reasons and purposes. For example, God decreed that Joseph's brothers would hate him without justification (Ge 37:4), even though His prescriptive will forbids hatred without cause. God decreed that they conspire to betray him and sell him to the Ishmeelites (Ge 37:27), which is tantamount to kidnapping, even though God forbids kidnapping. God decreed that Joseph would be sold by the Ishmeelites as a chattel slave to Egypt, even though God's prescriptive will forbids chattel slavery. God decreed that Joseph's brothers would deceive Jacob into thinking Joseph was killed and send him into deep mourning (Ge 37:31-35), even though God's prescriptive will forbids lying without justification.

We know this was all meticulously decreed by God because, among myriad other reasons, He says so. Moreover, the reason why He decreed the evil was to bring about good. The scripture reveals that the famine in the Land (Ge 45:6) was authored by God (Ps 105:16). We know that it wasn't really Joseph's brothers who sent him to Egypt, but God Himself, having decreed the evil of Joseph's brothers, contrary to His own prescriptive will: Ge 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Thus, we see God's decretive will (unjust hatred and deceit, jealousy, selfishness, kidnapping, etc.) are contrary to His prescriptive will (prohibitions against unjust hatred and deceit, jealousy, selfishness, kidnapping, etc.). By understanding God's meticulous control and the fact that everything God decrees, good and evil (Job 2:10) are for God's own good purposes, Joseph could duly and confidently say: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Gen 50:20).

God's decrees constitute the precise details of planned events, actions and outcomes. They are not merely "guides" or "boundaries." When the Scriptures say "As it is written," it refers to exhaustive and meticulous detail, perfectly coordinated, chronologically and precisely, something no mere "guideline" or "boundary" could do.

God's law, in every dispensation, comprises His prescriptive will. Paul tells the Romans to pay their taxes (Ro 13:6). This is God prescribed will. There may have been those who were resisting the government (Ro 13:2), and Paul told them that this is tantamount to resisting the ordinance (prescribed will) of God. Their resistance was according to God's decreed will. The command expressed God's prescribed will. God had good reasons for decreeing their resistance, not the least of which is giving Paul a real-life case to address in his epistle, and by which to convey to all God's saints the importance of paying taxes to the government under which one finds oneself.

In Deu 29, Moses informs Israel that God had not given them a heart to perceive, eyes to see, or ears to hear until that very day. All the great and wonderful things God had done for them were not fully perceived because of the blindness that God decreed for them. In that day, Israel stood before God as a nation for the purpose of drafting a covenant between them, as the result of now seeing all these things God had done for them. As it is in the case of human covenants, included in the oath are the attending curses that will come to pass should one of the parties fail to uphold his part of the agreement. In the case of divine covenants, such curses only apply to the human side of the agreement, not the divine side. This speaks to God's immutable essence. He cannot fail to uphold His end of a covenant. That is never in question. Always in question is man's side of the vow. And this Moses addresses in great detail.

He has recounted for Israel all God has done for them. All Israel knows the gospel promise God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning their promised Land and future glory. But then Moses proceeds to declare that Israel will indeed turn its heart away from God, and horrific curses will indeed befall them. God has decreed it, and it will come to pass. Moses writes:

22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it; 23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath: 24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? 25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: 28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.​

Moses then shifts his description of the future God has revealed to him to address the question on the mind of every thoughtful Jew within earshot: "But what about the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning our nation? What about the gospel of our kingdom? Why has God decreed that all this horrific and terrifying disease and destruction will happen to His chosen nation?"

Moses writes: 29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

In other words, God's prescriptions are clear. Obey them. The details of God's decrees are secret and belong to the Lord, comprising the reasons why God would decree such evil and calamity for Israel. Obey God's prescriptions; don't try to figure out His decrees.

Overall, Israel can know that God decrees evil for His good purposes, but the details thereof and the specific reasons for them are secret to God.

Moses then proceeds to describe their great and glorious future that God has decreed for the nation that will inexorably come to pass:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.​

Moses sets before all Israel their future as a nation (even to those who are not present, Deu 29:14,15) . It's going to happen just as he describes it. God has decreed it for the nation. But now, each individual Jew must consider God's prescriptions [note the shift in pronoun from plural to singular]:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you [all Israel], that I have set before you [all Israel] life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou [individual Jew] and thy seed may live: 20 That thou [individual Jew] mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou [individual Jew] mayest obey his voice, and that thou [individual Jew]mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou [individual Jew] mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.​

Thus we see another example of how God's decretive will (Israel's idolatry, captivity and eventual glory) is contrary to God's prescriptive will (His commands to Israel to turn from idolatry and to keep their covenant). The Bible is chock-full of these.

Jim, you agreed that God does not make marred vessels. (of course you only agree with because it's in the Bible. Your theology clearly teaches otherwise).

I did not. You asked, "Jim, tell us which of the following two options is true according to the Bible..." The one I chose was the most biblical. The one I didn't choose was inaccurate and riddled with Open View assumptions.

In reality God takes marred vessels and has the prerogative to re-make them into something good. (that is the clear teaching in the Bible).

No, the clear teaching of the Bible is that God forms pots of honor and pots of dishonor. Anyone who understands pottery knows that pots don't mar themselves, and pots don't talk back to their makers. The prophets use the metaphor because it demonstrates how ludicrous it is for finite man to talk back to the infinite God.

God DOES NOT intentionally mar vessels just so that He can later make Himself look "good", like an abusive parent that beats their child and then later buys them a toy to make themselves look "good".

This is your humanism talking, Eric. God has every prerogative to raise up Pharaoh (a pot formed by God for dishonor) just so He can demonstrate His goodness, proclaim His Word and bless His people (Ro 9:17).

You stated on this thread that God is NOT responsible for our salvation.

If I said... "Jim Hilston says that God is NOT responsible for our salvation." would you find that libelous?

As in all cases of libel, it depends on the context and reasoning behind the statement. Why would you even want to say that?

All according to God's decrees, for His own good purposes (but not necessarily according to God's prescriptions) for which He answers to no one, of course.
Jim

 

[Delmar]

No, the clear teaching of the Bible is that God forms pots of honor and pots of dishonor.

WRONG

Anyone who understands pottery knows that pots don't mar themselves, and pots don't talk back to their makers.

That is because pots are generally not alive, Jim Pots are not normally rebelous either!

The prophets use the metaphor because it demonstrates how ludicrous it is for finite man to talk back to the infinite God.

..but the pots in this "metaphor" are alive Jim.

 

[themuzicman]

The pots are covenants, the Old, Mosaic Covenant, and the New Covenant established in Christ's blood on the cross. The former was prepared for wrath, just as Pharoah was hardened to be prepared for wrath, and the latter was prepared for glory.

Muz

 

[patman]

Doesn't God have a purpose or use for the sins of man and Satan (whether God is the author of it or not)?
i.e.~
Ge 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Ex 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Ex 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
Ps 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose
1Pet 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
Da 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Mt 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Mr 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
1Pet5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Should we care more about ourselves than God? What was Job's lesson? God questions all of you who would pre-judge Him by your own standards rather than by awaiting and trusting His wisdom. How can God not want man to learn for himself of their need for God? Why would God not want to fashion a system destined for dishonor and pain to bring learned realization of life without Him? Should man be programed as a robot to love God, or learn personally the Goodness of God by the pain of separation from Him? God is not the "Father" of evil, sin, or lies, but they were certainly in His Will orchestrated for man to repent of Evil and come to a knowledge and desire for Him, else Evil would not be.

Hello Stone,

I am an open theist, and I agree that God can use sins for good. This doesn't mean he causes the sin. I think this is the main difference between Open theism and Settled Theism is how they say God is involved with sin.

Open Theism believes as you said, that God can use sin for good, but he doesn't have anything to do with the sin otherwise. Settled Theism often goes the extra step to say God planned or caused the sin as well.

I say thank God and praise him that he can bring good from evil, and more so that he never brings evil about no matter what good will come.

The lesson of Job is not to speak about what you don't understand. Job accused God of doing wrong things, just like the Settled view does. God came down and set him straight. He is holy and just, Job accused him of bringing the evil down on him even though Job was a righteous man. Job was very grieved because if God would do such a thing, who can he trust? He didn't want to be born.

The Settled view does this to countless people, who find it hard to trust God who causes sin for whatever reason. But just like Job, they will cover their mouths for what the said, and will regret what they had done to those hearts they broke by speaking what they didn't understand. God does not cause sin.

 

[Hilston]

Open Theism does violence to language: The Metaphor Reversal

Most normal people understand pretty well how metaphors work, even without explicit instruction. But Open Theism apparently does severe damage to the mind, particularly to the logical faculties. I don't expect many Open Theists to be able to follow anything I say below, so I offer this to those not yet encumbered by the debilitating effects of the Openness Virus.

The word "metaphor" comes from metaphora, a compound Greek word formed by joining meta (= beyond, over) and pherein (= to carry). It means "a transferrance, or carrying over or across." The figure may also be called a "transferrance." In Latin, it was called "translatio," i.e. the translation or carrying across of one thing and applying it to another (e.g. Cicero. Orat. xxxvii). In a metaphor, the two nouns are to be understood literally; it is the verb that carries the figure. This can all be read for yourself in E.W. Bullinger's Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, pp. 735ff.

The key things about metaphors, which most people seem to intuitively understand, is: (a) that the ideas you transfer from the illustrative noun to its referrent must not carry over more than is necessary to get the point, and (b) we're supposed to take what we know of the illustrative nouns (i.e. Potter-Clay) and apply it to the referrents (i.e. God-Israel/individuals, respectively), never the reverse. In other words, we're supposed to take what we know of potters to understand the prophets point about God, and we're supposed to take what we know of clay to understand the prophets point about Israel and/or individuals. Never the reverse. But that is exactly what Delmar and his Open View cronies do.

When someone says "My car is a dog," those will normal brain function rightly conclude that the car is somehow inadequate (old or slow, etc.). Would anyone also conclude that dogs run on gasoline? Of course not, but that is where Open View logic leads. So if I were to say, "Dogs don't run on gasoline," Delmar would say: "These dogs do!"

When someone looks at an individual's desk and says, "You're a pig," those with normal brain function rightly conclude that the desk's occupant is a messy individual. Would we also conclude that pigs sit at desks? Of course not, but that is where Open View logic leads. So if I were to say, "Pigs don't sit at desks," Delmar would reply: "These pigs do!"

When the tired person says, "My legs are rubber," those with normal brain function rightly conclude that the individuals legs seem wobbly. Would we also conclude that rubber wears shoes? Of course not, but that is where Open View logic leads. So if were to say, "Rubber doesn't wear shoes," Delmar would reply, "This rubber does!"

When someone says it is raining cats and dogs, those will normal brain function rightly conclude that the raindrops are large and it's coming down hard. Would anyone also conclude that cats and dogs are generated by condensation in the clouds? Of course not, but that is where Open View logic leads. So if I were to say, "Cats and dogs are not generated in the clouds," Delmar would retort: "These cats and dogs are!"

When those will normal brain function consider the metaphor of Jesus as The Door, they rightly conclude that Jesus is a means of access to salvation of spiritual provision. Would anyone also conclude that doors are intelligent and can communicate their thoughts to people? Of course not, but that is where Open View logic leads. So if I were to say, "Doors do not communicate their thoughts to people," Delmar would respond: "These doors do!"

When those with normal brain function consider the metaphor that "all flesh is grass (Isa 40:6)" they rightly conclude that man is frail and his life is fleeting. Would anyone also conclude that blades of grass feel pain? Of course not, but that is where Open View logic leads. So instead of transferring the characteristics of grass (frail and fleeting mortality) to man, Open Theists do the reverse.

When one considers the metaphor "The tares are the children of the wicked one," one rightly concludes, like wheat and weeds, it is difficult to distinguish between the wicked and the godly children while they are young, but, as it is with wheat and weeds, when they're mature the differences become evident. Would anyone also conclude that tares are moral agents full of evil? Of course not, but that where Open View logic leads. So instead of limiting the transfer of the characteristics of the tares to the children of the wicked one, Open Theists do the reverse.

Note how Delmar, instead of transferring the characteristics of the pot to humans (i.e. humans are formed by their Maker for the Maker's decreed purposes), the transfer human characteristics to the pot. Watch:

Hilston wrote: No, the clear teaching of the Bible is that God forms pots of honor and pots of dishonor.

WRONG

Using the metaphor reversal, the Open Theists concludes that the potter is not the one who is deciding what kind of pots to make.

Hilston wrote: Anyone who understands pottery knows that pots don't mar themselves, and pots don't talk back to their makers.

That is because pots are generally not alive, Jim ...

Pots are never alive, except in the Open Theist's world. Again, applying their metaphor reversal, the Open Theist doesn't transfer the characteristics of the pot to the human, but rather transfers them from the human to the pot.

Hilston wrote: The prophets use the metaphor because it demonstrates how ludicrous it is for finite man to talk back to the infinite God.

Pots are not normally rebelous either! ..but the pots in this "metaphor" are alive Jim.

When examined closely, we see how Open Theists apply this metaphor reversal not only with the Potter-Clay metaphor, but also throughout their humanistic theology. E.g., since man is made in God's image, Open Theists look at man as the measure of God. In order to understand God's love, Open Theists look at human examples. In order to understand God's sorrow, Open Theists look at human examples. The conclusion is: Open Theists do violence to language.

Q.E.D.

All according to God's decrees, of course.
Jim

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why would you even want to say that?

Because it highlights the absurdity of your position.

 

[themuzicman]

Do you who condemn stealing, do you steal? Do you who abhor idols rob temples?

Do you who decry misuse of metaphors say that pots don't mar themselves?

:bang:

Muz

 

[godrulz]

Patman:

God uses sin for good? Examples? A holy, loving God hates and judges sin. He may use sinners and Satan for judicial purposes, but they will still be held accountable in the end. Sin/selfishness is the opposite of God/love/righteousness.

I think he mitigates some of the negative affects of sin with His mercy and grace, especially for believers. He can make one pure, even though one is no longer a technical virgin. He can restore the years that the locusts ate. He can creatively redeem sinful, horrible situations to some degree.

I do not think there is anything good about sin, sickness, death. Jesus opposed these things and brought wholeness when possible (hard to undo a rape or murder). He did not affirm them as God's will nor inherently 'good' in any way, shape, form.

 

[STONE]

God's hand forms vessels through rescuing us with His grace or letting us fall into sin and the power of the Enemy based upon what we and others currently need to learn.
Pots are made for certain uses as the potter decrees. Some are to contain Honor/God's Grace, while others hold Dishonor/works of Satan (2pet2:12) examples as the Potter purposes; which purpose is: 2Pe 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Therefore God makes and forms us deliberately considering our self will and the self will of mankind to bring about repentance and awareness of our need for Him.
Ro 1:28 And even as they "did not like" to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Bob Hill]

I understand from the Bible that God can know the future. But the Bible shows us that when He does, He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He can know that it will happen, but that does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it.

As many of us know, the Hebrew word nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God around 30 times. The one that really affected me is found in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word, nacham, relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion. If God was outside of time and saw the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions. I also believe, if the future actions of men are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know. But that doesn’t mean that God would not have any idea about what would happen. He would usually have a very good idea of man’s behavior in the near future.

God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. He is always the same it that attribute. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other time responsibilities that are measured by time.

With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I do not believe the future exists.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

themusicman wrote,

Do you who condemn stealing, do you steal? Do you who abhor idols rob temples?

Yes, I do condemn stealing. I really, never steal!! I do abhor idols, but I do not rob temples or churches or anything else.

However, before I was saved in 1951, I was really a thief.

Bob Hill