ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[ChristisKing]

ChristisKing,

Why do you question the way that I attempt to prove that the "ransom" was for "all men" everywhere by using different epistles?

Because you conviently ignore the fact that 90% of the examples from Scripture that I directly provided to you that use the phrase "all men" or "all flesh" clearly refer to only a group of people and not every single person on earth. (Sorry to be away so long....work has really been piling up.)

Let us go to the first use of the term "all men" in this discourse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"(Ro.5:12).

Does this not refer to "all men" everywhere?

Of course it does.

As Ronald Reagan used to say, "there you go again!" :chuckle: You find a verse where "all men" means every single person on earth and immediately superimpose that meaning everywhere "all men" is used in Scripture.

I though we already went over this lesson? Don't make me copy those 90% verses again where "all men" clearly does not mean every single person on earth! :BillyBob:

Paul is writing to the elect, to the "beloved of God, called to be saints (v.7)" He is teaching them that they were once enemies of God because they are all sinners. He says, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8) and "...when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God...(5:10)."

In verse 12 Paul is just proving his point that since all our sinners so were you "beloved of God, called to be saints" sinners. Paul then returns to talking about the "beloved of God, called to be saints" by saying "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they (the 'beloved of God, called to be saints') which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ."

He continues talking about only the "beloved of God, called to be saints" in verse 18, "...even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." The "all men" are the same "beloved of God, called to be saints," because they/we are the only ones justified who were once "enemies!"

If the "many" are the elect,then how do you explain the following words of the Lord Jesus and Paul in regard to who the "ransom" is for:

"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many"(Mt.20:28).

I explain it to mean that He gave His life only for the elect, His sheep, and not for anyone else. He gave His life for many, not for all! Just like He said He would:

JOH 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
JOH 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

If "many" refers to the "elect",then what is the meaning of "all" in the following verse?:

"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time"(1Tim.2:6).

It means the same thing it meant a week ago when we started this discussion, it means for all types and classes of people "For kings, and for all that are in authority;" as defined in verse 2, that verse you keep omitting.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

ChristisKing,

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"(Ro.5:12).

You seem to agree with me that the words "all men" in this verse means all men everywhere.You said:

You find a verse where "all men" means every single person on earth and immediately superimpose that meaning everywhere "all men" is used in Scripture.

No,I am not "superimposing" it on every verse.Instead,I am using the verse because it is in the "context" of the verse we are discussing.Romans 5:12 is speaking about the condemnation (death) that comes upon all men everwhere,as does this verse that follows shortly in the same discourse:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18).

So if the words "all men" at verse 12 means all men everywhere,then it must have the same meaning the first time that it is used at verse 18.And if it means all men everwhere the first time it is used in verse 18,then it must have that same meaning the second time it is used.

Therefore,the "free gift" came to all men everywhere.

And the "free gift" is reconciliation:

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

"when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"(Ro.5:10).

So the Scriptures teach universal reconciliation:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"(1Jn.2:2).

The sins of the world.Not the sins of the elect.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb.2:9).

For every man.Not every "type" of man.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[godrulz]

A limited atonement wrongly limits the impartial love of God. There is no just reason why God would not save some that He could save. His death is efficacious for all who believe. He predestined that those who believed would become part of the elect. He did not predestine which individuals would or would not believe (elect vs non-elect). This is clearly the responsibility of the individual to receive or reject truth in Christ. We, not God, are culpable if we are lost. He has done everything possible to provide a general, universal redemption. This is consistent with His character and ways.

Jn. 3:16 God loved the whole world, not just the elect. If you insist on reading elect back into this passage, how would John 3:16 read if God intended to communicate that He loves and died for the whole world (general vs limited atonement)? My guess is that it would read: "For God so loved the world that He gave...that whoever believes...will have eternal life..." A different Greek word would have been used to convey the idea that His love was limited to the elect. The use of 'world' elsewhere is consistent with the common understanding of this verse, the Gospel in a nutshell. It is not Good News if there is an invisible group out there that we are to preach to, but they have no hope or possibility of being saved. This limits the love of God and the efficacy of the cross.


Remember, even Calvin believed in general redemption, and there are 4-point Calvinists who see the problem with limited atonement.

 

[ChristisKing]

So the Scriptures teach universal reconciliation:

You mean to tell me I've been debating with a "universalist?" No wonder! Tell me, do you believe Jesus Christ is God?

 

[ChristisKing]

A limited atonement wrongly limits the impartial love of God. There is no just reason why God would not save some that He could save. His death is efficacious for all who believe. He predestined that those who believed would become part of the elect. He did not predestine which individuals would or would not believe (elect vs non-elect). This is clearly the responsibility of the individual to receive or reject truth in Christ. We, not God, are culpable if we are lost. He has done everything possible to provide a general, universal redemption. This is consistent with His character and ways.

Jn. 3:16 God loved the whole world, not just the elect. If you insist on reading elect back into this passage, how would John 3:16 read if God intended to communicate that He loves and died for the whole world (general vs limited atonement)? My guess is that it would read: "For God so loved the world that He gave...that whoever believes...will have eternal life..." A different Greek word would have been used to convey the idea that His love was limited to the elect. The use of 'world' elsewhere is consistent with the common understanding of this verse, the Gospel in a nutshell. It is not Good News if there is an invisible group out there that we are to preach to, but they have no hope or possibility of being saved. This limits the love of God and the efficacy of the cross.


Remember, even Calvin believed in general redemption, and there are 4-point Calvinists who see the problem with limited atonement.

Calvin did not believe any such thing and anyone who believes only 4 points of Calvinism is inconsistent.

But anyway, now that we finished understanding how "all men" is used throughout Scripture, lets see how the word "world" is used. You quoted John 3:16 wrong! It doesn't say "For God so loved the whole world," as you biasly suggest (your slip is showing), but rather it says, "For God so loved the world."

Now here is just a quick sample of how "world" is used by the Holy Spirit to clearly NOT mean every single person on earth:

JOH 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

LUK 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
JOH 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
JOH 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
JOH 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
JOH 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
JOH 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
ROM 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1JO 2:15 Love not the world (don't love all people??), neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1JO 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1JO 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1JO 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1JO 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1JO 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Based on this I would not be so quick to interpret John 3:16 to mean every single person on earth, otherwise you might find yourself in Jerry's heresy of "universal redemption."

 

[godrulz]

Calvin did not believe any such thing and anyone who believes only 4 points of Calvinism is inconsistent.

Based on this I would not be so quick to interpret John 3:16 to mean every single person on earth, otherwise you might find yourself in Jerry's heresy of "universal redemption."

I have seen many quotes showing Calvin believed in a general redemption.

Jn. 3:16 has a condition (belief). This is why universalism is not true (Jerry is not a universalist either). The atonement is efficacious for all who believe in Jesus. The scope was intended for all men, though not all are saved, since not all men appropriate the provision through faith.

"World" is used in different senses, depending on the context.

How would Jn. 3:16 read if the author intended the scope of His provision to be for everyone, and not just the so-called elect?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You mean to tell me I've been debating with a "universalist?" No wonder! Tell me, do you believe Jesus Christ is God?

ChristisKing,

I am not a universalist,and you should know it.

I said that the Cross provided a reconciliation for all men,but only those who come within that reconciliation by faith will be saved.

So quit saying that I teach a "universal redemption".

And yes,I believe that Jesaus Christ is God.

Of course I am not the least bit surprised that you are attermpting to misrepresent what I teach.You have not been able to answer the points that I have raised.Here they are again and perhaps this time you will answer them.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"(Ro.5:12).

You seem to agree with me that the words "all men" in this verse means all men everywhere.You said:

You find a verse where "all men" means every single person on earth and immediately superimpose that meaning everywhere "all men" is used in Scripture.

No,I am not "superimposing" it on every verse.Instead,I am using the verse because it is in the "context" of the verse we are discussing.Romans 5:12 is speaking about the condemnation (death) that comes upon all men everwhere,as does this verse that follows shortly in the same discourse:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18).

So if the words "all men" at verse 12 means all men everywhere,then it must have the same meaning the first time that it is used at verse 18.And if it means all men everwhere the first time it is used in verse 18,then it must have that same meaning the second time it is used.

Therefore,the "free gift" came to all men everywhere.

And the "free gift" is reconciliation:

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

"when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"(Ro.5:10).

So the Scriptures teach universal reconciliation:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"(1Jn.2:2).

The sins of the world.Not the sins of the elect.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb.2:9).

For every man.Not every "type" of man.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

"World" is used in different senses, depending on the context.

Yep, and here is context of John 3:16 "world,"

JOH 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The Spirit saves whomever He wishes, and it obviously not the whole entire world.

 

[ChristisKing]

So the Scriptures teach universal reconciliation:

Sorry, I got confused by comments like this.

 

[godrulz]

Yep, and here is context of John 3:16 "world,"

JOH 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The Spirit saves whomever He wishes, and it obviously not the whole entire world.

2 Peter 3:9 He does not want anyone to perish. He would have gathered Jerusalem, but they were not willing, so He wept.

I Tim. 2:4,6 ...wants all men to be saved...Gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

Jn. 3:8 is emphasizing the nature of spiritual rebirth/heavenly things vs physical birth; it is not about the election and reprobation of men (come on!).

The Spirit saves whoever believes in Jesus. God's will, purposes, and intentions can be resisted. His provision is adequate, but some men refuse to come to Him in repentant faith. It is not that God limits His love or atonement. Jesus dying for some men only is contrary to His great love (mpartial) for all men.

Lk. 7:30 "But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John."

Those Jews that did respond to the conviction and convincing of the Spirit were saved. God does not play eenie-meanie-minnie-moe.

It is bizarre to think that God does not save many that He could save due to election/reprobation. This is arbitrary and contrary to love and justice. He does not have to save anyone, but if He saves some who meet His conditions, He should save all who do so. It is insincere to offer the Gospel to all men knowing some cannot believe even if they want to, while others must believe even if they do not want to.

A negation of free will in favor of determinism negates the imago dei and any sense of personal responsibility/accountability (let alone the distortion of God's great character and ways). It was not a mere human or angel who died for us. Even in nature, God has provided universal remedies for sickness, rain for crops, etc. It is unthinkable that the death of the God-man was of limited benefit. It was intended for all objectively, but only some subjectively appropriate it. Receiving or rejecting Christ is the response to persuasive preaching. The ball is in our court. Do not impunge the love and power of God.

 

[ChristisKing]

The Spirit saves whoever believes in Jesus.

ACT 13:48 ...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

It is bizarre to think that God does not save many that He could save due to election/reprobation. This is arbitrary and contrary to love and justice.

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (ROM 9:18-20)

Receiving or rejecting Christ is the response to persuasive preaching.

1CO 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

The ball is in our court.

ROM 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[lee_merrill]

ACT 13:48 ...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (ROM 9:18-20)

1CO 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

ROM 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Well, yes....

Well, yes!

This is indeed clear in Scripture, people look at faith bringing salvation, and do not inquire whether faith might have a cause...

Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith...

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. I only hope that all can be saved, too, which others would tend to disagree with, but that would address some of Godrulz's objections, as well...

 

[godrulz]

ACT 13:48 ...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.



So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (ROM 9:18-20)



1CO 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,



ROM 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

These are proof texts that have been responded to many times. Using verses about the corporate election of national Israel for ministry should not be extrapolated to an extrabiblical doctrine of election and reprobation of individuals.

2 Peter 2:1 (re: limited atonement) False prophets and false teachers deny the sovereign Lord who bought them. They brought destruction upon themselves. Some whom Jesus died for and provided for were lost. The remedy was intended for all men, but not all men respond, receive, or persevere. In hundreds of years of church history, every person who has responded to the clarion call of the Gospel was saved. There is no indication in Scripture or history that the Gospel is only for the 'elect' and others were predestined for hell from eternity past. The Gospel is preached to persuade men to repent and believe. It is not thrown out with only the secret elect able to convert. Whosoever will may come and drink of living water. He will in no way cast anyone out who responds to love and truth.

 

[ChristisKing]

These are proof texts that have been responded to many times. Using verses about the corporate election of national Israel for ministry should not be extrapolated to an extrabiblical doctrine of election and reprobation of individuals.

These are proof texts alright! They prove just the opposite of what you are teaching.

The national election of Israel was done away with in the coming of Jesus Christ, now God's elect include people from all nations, races, and classes.

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, ... (COL 3:11-12)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, ... (COL 3:11-12)

ChristisKing,

The Scriptual expression "the elect of God" is not the mere statement of a fact,or even of a purpose,but like the title "First Born",it is a title of dignity and privilege which is applicable exclusively to the Christian.

Of course we are not the "first born",but instead it is the Lord Jesus Who is the first born from the dead.But since we are "in Christ" we too are called "first born":

"to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of {the} righteous made perfect,"(Heb.12:23).

Christians are called the "elect" because we are "in Christ",but that title primarily applies to Him:

"To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,...Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded"(1Pet.2:4,6).

Now in regard to the verses that you quote that indicate that a person's salvation is set in stone before the beginning of the world,please consider the following.He,"the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world",could not find anything in the Scriptures nor in the Divine purpose to hinder His prayer at Gethsemane:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me"(Mt.26:39).

To Him the necessity to drink of the cup arose not from any irrevocable edict of the past,but from the sovereign will of a present Living God.

Calvinists teach that at some spoch in the past that God decided that that or this individual would be saved or lost.Therefore his future depends on what is more or less than an iron decree of fate.However,the Scriptures reveal that a man's future depends on the present actions of the living God Who can appeal through the gospel to man's heart and conscience.

If the Lord Jesus believed as do the Calvinists He would not have asked the Father:

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me"(Mt.26:39).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

The Scriptural expression "the elect of God" is not the mere statement of a fact, or even of a purpose, but like the title "First Born",it is a title of dignity and privilege which is applicable exclusively to the Christian.

A title only, and not a choice?

Christians are called the "elect" because we are "in Christ",but that title primarily applies to Him…

Certainly Christ was chosen, but not for salvation! We need salvation, and our election is primarily (in Paul's thought) in that area. These two elections are different, though they are both God's choice.

To Him the necessity to drink of the cup arose not from any irrevocable edict of the past, but from the sovereign will of a present Living God.

But Jesus was also sure that what he had spoken of would happen to him:

Matthew 26:2 "As you know, the Passover is two days away-- and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

So we must interpret Jesus' prayer as asking if there is some way for the Scripture to be indeed fulfilled in the way that it is written, yet without drinking all of this cup, and going through all the suffering he saw ahead of him, as if to say "I do not see how, but I still ask this, knowing the depths of God's counsel, and his ability."

Calvinists teach that at some epoch in the past that God decided that that or this individual would be saved or lost.

They actually believe God is not in time at all! Thus the decrees did not happen in the past, so to speak.

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. I notice the other side quotes verses, too! Yes, quoting texts is appropriate to support a position, and we can't both be right. I actually think we will all be right, and all ... be wrong. I shall quote a verse!

Romans 11:33-34 "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"

 

[godrulz]

These are proof texts alright! They prove just the opposite of what you are teaching.

The national election of Israel was done away with in the coming of Jesus Christ, now God's elect include people from all nations, races, and classes.

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, ... (COL 3:11-12)

The elect of God is a corporate church. Whoever believes in Christ becomes part of the elect. They are not a special group of individuals arbitrarily chosen by God before they were even born. The flip side is that you must believe in double predestination or reprobation. This mocks the great sacrifice of Christ and His love for the whole world, not just the so-called lottery winners.

 

[ChristisKing]

The elect of God is a corporate church. Whoever believes in Christ becomes part of the elect. They are not a special group of individuals arbitrarily chosen by God before they were even born. The flip side is that you must believe in double predestination or reprobation. This mocks the great sacrifice of Christ and His love for the whole world, not just the so-called lottery winners.

ROM 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Hmmm...I wonder who to believe here, godrulz or Paul?

 

[ChristisKing]

Calvinists teach that at some spoch in the past that God decided that that or this individual would be saved or lost.Therefore his future depends on what is more or less than an iron decree of fate.However,the Scriptures reveal that a man's future depends on the present actions of the living God Who can appeal through the gospel to man's heart and conscience.

No....Scripture teaches that from the beginning of eternity God decided to become a man and die for a specific number of people, all of which will be given faith to come to Christ and they all will come without exception.

1PE 1:20 Who (Christ) verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

EPH 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...

JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

ROM 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Hmmm...I wonder who to believe here, godrulz or Paul?

ChristisKing,

If this was in regard to salvation you might have a point.But you conviently left out the part that says that the purpose of God was that "the elder shall serve the younger"(Ro.9:11).

Just a minor detail to you I am sure but these verses are speaking about "service" and not salvation.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html