ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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themuzicman
Well-known member
RobE said:
I didn't say that.
Why would, in the case of Judas, "arrange" have te equal "prearrange"?
And why would God have to do cause it to happen?
Muz
RobE
New member
3) When asked how Jesus foreknew this you said, "I never said God was dumb. In fact, He's smart enough to bring about events in such a way that 11 of the 12 disciples become true to Him, and one of them, who was known from the beginning, betrays Him."
Here you said God arranged it(caused it)!
Your Answer : Arrange is a far cry from cause. They are not synonyms.
Main Entry: foreordain
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: doom
Synonyms: destinate, destine, fate, foredoom, foretell, prearrange, predestine, predetermine, predict, preordain, reserve
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved
Here you said God arranged it(caused it)!
Your Answer : Arrange is a far cry from cause. They are not synonyms.
Main Entry: foreordain
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: doom
Synonyms: destinate, destine, fate, foredoom, foretell, prearrange, predestine, predetermine, predict, preordain, reserve
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved
themuzicman
Well-known member
I think what I said is pretty clear, in spite of your attempts to twist it. I'll just leave it there.
Muz
Muz
RobE
New member
Final Reply to Michael regarding Judas.
Final Reply to Michael regarding Judas.
Michael,
I appreciate you responding to every question I've asked over the last couple of weeks. When you made the underlined statement above you were being honest. I'm not sure what you claim I've twisted because it seems clear what you were saying.
Now, I invite you to sit down and decide why Judas betrayed Christ and how Christ knew Judas would betray Him.
You've answered honestly on this thread and I commend you for it. Your answers don't quite match up to your LFW position or the O.V. position.
I've learned from you and thanks for the discussion. Maybe we can find something else to discuss later.
:wave: No Duplicity,
Rob
Final Reply to Michael regarding Judas.
themuzicman said:
3) When asked how Jesus foreknew this you said, "I never said God was dumb. In fact, He's smart enough to bring about events in such a way that 11 of the 12 disciples become true to Him, and one of them, who was known from the beginning, betrays Him."
Michael,
I appreciate you responding to every question I've asked over the last couple of weeks. When you made the underlined statement above you were being honest. I'm not sure what you claim I've twisted because it seems clear what you were saying.
Now, I invite you to sit down and decide why Judas betrayed Christ and how Christ knew Judas would betray Him.
You've answered honestly on this thread and I commend you for it. Your answers don't quite match up to your LFW position or the O.V. position.
I've learned from you and thanks for the discussion. Maybe we can find something else to discuss later.
:wave: No Duplicity,
Rob
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
At one time I actually held to the view that God knew all of the future until I realized that I had no biblical basis for believing that. I came to understand that the whole concept of God outside of time and seeing all things as an eternal now was from Greek philosophy and, in modern times, from the theory of relativity.
Now, I understand from the Bible that God can know the future. But the Bible shows us when He does. He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He can know that it will happen, but that does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it.
The Hebrew word nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God over 20 times. The passage that really affected me greatly was found in Deuteronomy, but now, I prefer the passage in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion: If God was outside of time and saw all the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions. I also believe: If the future actions of men are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them because they do not exist. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know.
When we read the Bible, God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. He is always the same it that attribute. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other time responsibilities that are measured by time. With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I do not believe the future exists until it actually happens.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Now, I understand from the Bible that God can know the future. But the Bible shows us when He does. He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He can know that it will happen, but that does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it.
The Hebrew word nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God over 20 times. The passage that really affected me greatly was found in Deuteronomy, but now, I prefer the passage in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion: If God was outside of time and saw all the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions. I also believe: If the future actions of men are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them because they do not exist. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know.
When we read the Bible, God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. He is always the same it that attribute. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other time responsibilities that are measured by time. With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I do not believe the future exists until it actually happens.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
God ordained that I hold the Open View.Bob Hill said:
Dear God, I am an Open Theist. -- FrankiE
Dear FrankiE, I already knew that. -- God
Dear God, I could have been a Closed Theist. -- FrankiE
Dear FrankiE, Really? I didn't know that. -- God
Dear FrankiE, I already knew that. -- God
Dear God, I could have been a Closed Theist. -- FrankiE
Dear FrankiE, Really? I didn't know that. -- God
themuzicman
Well-known member
Knight said:God ordained that I hold the Open View.
I've always said that if I'm wrong, then God ordained that I would be wrong.
if the Calvinist is wrong, however, they got it wrong all by themselves.
:cheers:
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