ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!
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geoff
New member
JoBeth,
In reality, it is both. He allows sin to occur, FOR THE MOMENT, however, that does not mean that Sin occurs with in His will. If Sin occurs within the will of God, God is guilty of that sin.
Therefore in the BIG picture, Sin is not allowed, God has Judged Sin and will punish it. However, until such time as that final punishment takes place, sin still continues, against the will of God, until all its agents are destroyed.
In reality, it is both. He allows sin to occur, FOR THE MOMENT, however, that does not mean that Sin occurs with in His will. If Sin occurs within the will of God, God is guilty of that sin.
Therefore in the BIG picture, Sin is not allowed, God has Judged Sin and will punish it. However, until such time as that final punishment takes place, sin still continues, against the will of God, until all its agents are destroyed.
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
You said: "In reality, it is both. He allows sin to occur, FOR THE MOMENT, however, that does not mean that Sin occurs with in His will. "
You agreed with me that God is able to make anything happen that He wants to happen.
So, if, as you say, sin is currently occurring, then it MUST be because God wants it to.
But, you say:"...sin still continues, against the will of God.."
Does God have two minds on the issue of sin, and whether to allow it to occur, even for the moment, or not?
God is either now (currently) allowing sin to occur or He isn't. You cannot say "both". So which is it?
You said: "In reality, it is both. He allows sin to occur, FOR THE MOMENT, however, that does not mean that Sin occurs with in His will. "
You agreed with me that God is able to make anything happen that He wants to happen.
So, if, as you say, sin is currently occurring, then it MUST be because God wants it to.
But, you say:"...sin still continues, against the will of God.."
Does God have two minds on the issue of sin, and whether to allow it to occur, even for the moment, or not?
God is either now (currently) allowing sin to occur or He isn't. You cannot say "both". So which is it?
geoff
New member
Yes.
And He also knows that He is going to destroy it.
Therefore we can say that God DOES NOT permit sin, nor does He cause it, although until the Kingdom is fully here, Sin continues, because there are still those who sin, and all are still Sinners.
You really really need to go and study inaugerated eschatology.
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
If God knows that sin is currently occurring, and God is able to stop it from occurring if He wanted to, then if He has not yet stopped it, He is currently permitting it to occur.
But you said (and I agree with you) that God does not permit sin.
If inaugerated eschatology teaches that God is currently permitting sin, then it is clearly wrong. For we only do what God permits us to do. Don't you agree?
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
John 15:5 ... for without me ye can do nothing.
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
If God knows that sin is currently occurring, and God is able to stop it from occurring if He wanted to, then if He has not yet stopped it, He is currently permitting it to occur.
But you said (and I agree with you) that God does not permit sin.
If inaugerated eschatology teaches that God is currently permitting sin, then it is clearly wrong. For we only do what God permits us to do. Don't you agree?
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
John 15:5 ... for without me ye can do nothing.
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
geoff
New member
JoBeth:
By sinner, I mean I, and you, and ALL people are in a state of SIN... we still have FLESHLY bodies (flesh meaning bodies that are corruptible, sinful, not perfected, mortal), until we recieve our new bodies, only then will we be sinless....
It doesnt matter how many sinful deeds you or I do... one a second, or one a year, what matters is that ANY sin ANYONE commits... EVEN thinking a bad thought is proof that you, or I, still possess a sin nature.
Getting saved doesnt stop us committing sinful deeds, getting saved starts us on the process of being cleansed from them.
Getting saved gets us FORGIVEN for our sin nature, which will only finally be annhilated when we recieve our new bodies.
By sinner, I mean I, and you, and ALL people are in a state of SIN... we still have FLESHLY bodies (flesh meaning bodies that are corruptible, sinful, not perfected, mortal), until we recieve our new bodies, only then will we be sinless....
It doesnt matter how many sinful deeds you or I do... one a second, or one a year, what matters is that ANY sin ANYONE commits... EVEN thinking a bad thought is proof that you, or I, still possess a sin nature.
Getting saved doesnt stop us committing sinful deeds, getting saved starts us on the process of being cleansed from them.
Getting saved gets us FORGIVEN for our sin nature, which will only finally be annhilated when we recieve our new bodies.
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jobeth
Member
Geoff:
I know that you claim that we cannot have remission of sins and be truly sanctified while in the flesh. But what if you are wrong about that?
What if there are those who are sanctified, here and now?
Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints,
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
What if you should be preaching that remission of sins is possible, rather than saying it is impossible?
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Suppose it's true that Saints have now been set free from the power of sin?
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
And now do not sin?
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
What if the Saints really are saints?
I know that you claim that we cannot have remission of sins and be truly sanctified while in the flesh. But what if you are wrong about that?
What if there are those who are sanctified, here and now?
Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints,
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
What if you should be preaching that remission of sins is possible, rather than saying it is impossible?
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Suppose it's true that Saints have now been set free from the power of sin?
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
And now do not sin?
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
What if the Saints really are saints?