Insults and emotional blanket judgments are my specialty.Balder said:
ARCHIVE: Fool is only fooling himself
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
This is the problem with debating you.allsmiles said:
You can't even read a simple story without twisting it. What's the point?
The command from the Lord came BEFORE the battle even started. I mean seriously... ??? What's the point in messing with you? There is only so much "dumb" I can handle. :bang:
Furthermore... let's assume (only for sake of argument) God decided to kill every person on the face of the earth except Joshua. You, allsmiles, are a MORAL relativist!!!! You could not judge that to be immoral relative to anyone but yourself!
You have rendered yourself irrelevant to the debate because you can only make judgments relative to you and no one else.
No. Viability simply means its a doable, possible option.allsmiles said:
Circumstance makes the option a necessity or not.
The command was to use the nuclear option. The task would not be done until it was complete.
That is the way war works. You are free to disagree (relative to yourself of course).
That doesn't change the rules of engagement, however; victory, then kill all survivors. The only conceivable defense to this does not appeal to mercy or morality or ethics or even justice. The only consistent defense is the preservation of the bloodline.
Pragmatism, in other words. God is a pragmatist in this situation.
Pragmatism, in other words. God is a pragmatist in this situation.
allsmiles
New member
Knight said:
actually Knight, that's not what the bible says at all :nono:
this is what your god says in verse 2: "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. 3 March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. 4 Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams' horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. 5 When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have all the people give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the people will go up, every man straight in."
now, this actually alleviates your god of the guilt of having used the nuclear option improperly because Joshua himself gives the orders for the genocide.
verse 16 says, "Joshua commanded the people, "Shout! For the LORD has given you the city! 17 The city and all that is in it are to be devoted to the LORD. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent. 18 But keep away from the devoted things, so that you will not bring about your own destruction by taking any of them. Otherwise you will make the camp of Israel liable to destruction and bring trouble on it. 19 All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the LORD and must go into his treasury."
your god's orders are followed in verse 20, and Joshua's orders are followed in verse 21.
"20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."
i underlined your god's command and i boldfaced Joshua's command to show the distinction.
congrats
your god isn't a murdering, incompetent tyrant.Joshua was.
i couldn't judge it to be immoral because i would be dead, Knight.
and i say you're squabbling over insignificant abstract ideals and labels.
allsmiles
New member
Knight said:
oh okay, viability means that it can happen, not if it should.
i get it :thumb:
could you give me an example of a circumstance?
the command didn't come from your god though :nono:
i disagree based upon a comparison of tactics Knights. one is good, the other is bad. i understand that that is my opinion, but it's not abstract and intangible like your labels and moral ideals. it is something that can be demonstrated on the battlefield, and for over 2000 years Sun Tzu has been proven to be correct.
Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu.
Balder
New member
IMO, the significance of Sun Tzu, or any number of leaders and teachers from non-Christian religions, or even of some saints from Christian tradition, is that it is relatively easy to find individuals who are more morally examplary and just than the deity described in the OT appears to be on many occasions.
This, to me, is a good indicator that the "character" we are dealing with in the OT stories is ultimately a human one -- the construct of fallible human beings. His actions and motivations are disturbingly limited, clumsy, brutal, and short-sighted. The "how dare you question me" is the tactic of a Wizard of Oz, booming out from behind a curtain which hides a frail and imperfect human being.
God may be great and just, but this character in these brutal OT stories is a dim reflection of him, at best, painted with clumsy human pigments, more reflective of the painter than the numinous reality he seeks to capture.
This, to me, is a good indicator that the "character" we are dealing with in the OT stories is ultimately a human one -- the construct of fallible human beings. His actions and motivations are disturbingly limited, clumsy, brutal, and short-sighted. The "how dare you question me" is the tactic of a Wizard of Oz, booming out from behind a curtain which hides a frail and imperfect human being.
God may be great and just, but this character in these brutal OT stories is a dim reflection of him, at best, painted with clumsy human pigments, more reflective of the painter than the numinous reality he seeks to capture.
"more morally examplary" on what scale?Balder said:
What is Balders scale of morality? Where does it come from? What is its name? Who told you about the scale? Why should we be compelled to believe your scale is accurate?
soothsayer
New member
Balder said:
:thumb:
So then... you agree with Balder that the USA was guilty of murder when we dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?soothsayer said:
Balder
New member
An unfortunate side-effect of the desire to worship at the altar of Biblical infallibility is that the moral depth of Jesus himself is gutted. He appears to stand on a higher moral ground and to represent a greater kind of being than the one reflected in these brutal and vengeful OT stories, but if he is really one with that character, and in fact identical with him, then you have to accept that Jesus himself was the instigator and supporter of these atrocities. Which makes him as brutal and petty as these OT warlords who wantonly slay innocents and non-Jews and covet gold and booty. To bring Jesus to this level is a real loss, it seems to me, but an inevitable one if you insist on viewing things through the simple "infallibilist" lens that Bob and others defend.
Have you read Revelation?? :think:Balder said:
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.Balder said:
Yes. Jesus did give the command as He and the Father are One.allsmiles said:
People can get exceedingly wicked. Drastic times take drastic measures.
God hates war, it grieves Him. But there are times when war actually saves lives in the long run. There are times that total and utter devastation is the most merciful thing that can be done.