An open challenge to all closed theists

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Lee – So I take it by your response that you have no idea what the actual words of Jonah chapter four verse ten subsection part b means.

You claim it can not mean what it literally says, yet you do not know what the figure even means.

I will wait for a bit more sense from you on this issue. A meaning is not a non-meaning. So I repeat, if you have a response to this thread’s bible conformity challenge, I’m looking forward to your answer.

Thanks for trying. :thumb:
 

lee_merrill

New member
Hi 1Way,

So I take it by your response that you have no idea what the actual words of Jonah chapter four verse ten subsection part b means.

I do have an idea what it means. It's like what we do when we repent, only God doesn't lie (your point), he doesn't repent from wrongdoing (your point again, I agree), and he doesn't change (where we disagree).

That's mostly negative, though. In positive terms, God changes his response, his emotional response, even.

You claim it can not mean what it literally says, yet you do not know what the figure even means.

Well you qualify here, too! We both qualify what this means. So the discussion should be "what qualifiers are appropriate?" not "should there be qualifiers at all?" We both agree there should be.

I will wait for a bit more sense from you on this issue. A meaning is not a non-meaning. So I repeat, if you have a response to this thread’s bible conformity challenge, I’m looking forward to your answer.

That's my answer! There's meaning there, I didn't remove *all* of the meaning with qualifiers. Just the part that you insist on keeping. :)

But people don't seem to be content with that, sometimes, and want *another* analogy to explain the analogy of "repents." Well how about when God is said to get angry? Can you think of another analogy that explains anger? It's difficult to come up with one! But I *do* think we understand what anger is like, without fishing up further analogies to explain this.

I also made some more comments in my post! Which I would appreciate *your* answer to. Like how do you avoid the charge that your view involved God in a lie, which you say (I agree) he does not do?

Blessings,
Lee
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Lee – You said
I do have an idea what it means. It's like what we do when we repent, only God doesn't lie (your point), he doesn't repent from wrongdoing (your point again, I agree), and he doesn't change (where we disagree).
Saying that the following idea

God did not do what He said He would do

does not represent a change in god’s plans,

renders the text into meaningless nonsense, and I remind you, I am not looking for a meaningless meaning, I am looking for a meaning for the figure. Plus you don’t believe that anyway, you believe that God always knew what He was going to do and therefore there was no change in God’s course of action, so you both mince words, and lack meaning, and that is far from an answer to my bible conformity challenge.

You have not said what it “means”, you have danced all around the issue, and suggested what it does not mean.

Example, hit the road is a figure of speech, it does not mean what it literally/naturally says. The meaning emphasizes immediacy of the action, to start right away, to put in other words, it means “lets get it going”, “lets start without delay”.

Now that’s pretty informal, and there may be other associated implications, but that’s basically what it means.

I did not say, this is “like” what it means, I am not dancing around the issue by using terms like “conditions” or “qualifications”. I plainly explained the meaning of the figure. And to the extent that you did try to explain the meaning of the figure, you did 2 main things instead, 1) you made it sound natural and not figurative thus contradicting your figurative position, and then to the tiny extent that you take it figurative, 2) you just say it "does not mean" God changed from His previously intended course of action. That is not a "meaning" offered, that is saying what the figure does not mean! Please clarify or stand corrected into something meaningful and not contradictory.

You said
But people don't seem to be content with that, sometimes, and want *another* analogy to explain the analogy of "repents."
No, I do not accept analogy for analogy, I am asking for the meaning of the claimed figure. Right now, because of your nonsense answer, I’d have to ask you exactly what text is literal and what is figurative.

If you will not explain the meaning of the figure, then such incompetence leaves you no standing to claim it is figurative and not literal.

So how about it, will you come work for me for a month or 2 if I pay you $50 per hour, but no more than $100/hour? The rate goes down considerably if you want payment before the job is complete. And don’t worry, when it comes time for me to pay you, I will come through with your variety of godly treatment of communicated ideas, turning what is literal into something figurative without reasonable justification.
 

lee_merrill

New member
Lee – You said Saying that the following idea

God did not do what He said He would do

does not represent a change in god’s plans,

renders the text into meaningless nonsense, and I remind you, I am not looking for a meaningless meaning, I am looking for a meaning for the figure. Plus you don’t believe that anyway, you believe that God always knew what He was going to do and therefore there was no change in God’s course of action, so you both mince words, and lack meaning, and that is far from an answer to my bible conformity challenge.

No, God did not do what he threatened. With an implied condition. If there was no implied condition, this I think involves God in falsehood, but we agree God cannot lie (still awaiting your answer on this one).

You have not said what it “means”, you have danced all around the issue, and suggested what it does not mean.

I did suggest what it means, that God changed his response, his emotional response, even. The qualifiers are to show what it doesn't mean, and then I address what I think it does mean.

Example, hit the road is a figure of speech, it does not mean what it literally/naturally says. The meaning emphasizes immediacy of the action, to start right away, to put in other words, it means “lets get it going”, “lets start without delay”.

Fine, that one was pretty easy. Can you do the same for anger, though? That was my point, that one is difficult.

I did not say, this is “like” what it means, I am not dancing around the issue by using terms like “conditions” or “qualifications”.

Your example is not an anthropomorphism, though, applied to God. Qualifiers are necessary for "God's arm," etc. which (I point out) you also qualify, for "repent", by saying "God doesn't lie or repent from evil."

And to the extent that you did try to explain the meaning of the figure, you did 2 main things instead, 1) you made it sound natural and not figurative thus contradicting your figurative position, and then to the tiny extent that you take it figurative, 2) you just say it "does not mean" God changed from His previously intended course of action. That is not a "meaning" offered, that is saying what the figure does not mean!

I don't understand what you mean by point one. What do you mean by "natural"? I qualified "repent", saying "God does not change his plan", thus making "repent" natural? I do insert qualifiers, and you do, too. So point number two applies to you as well...

Right now, because of your nonsense answer, I’d have to ask you exactly what text is literal and what is figurative.

I'm not sure what you mean here, either, what do you mean by "text". Or by "literal" versus "figurative." I think we both agree that "repents" is an anthropomorphism, that it has real meaning (literal in that sense), which we understand because of our experience of repenting (figurative in that sense).

If you will not explain the meaning of the figure, then such incompetence leaves you no standing to claim it is figurative and not literal.

I did give my explanation. If you insist that my explanation is not an explanation, then please explain :) why "changed his response" is meaningless.

And (speaking of no explanation!) please explain how God did not lie to the Ninevites (on your view).

Anyway!

Blessings,
Lee
 
Last edited:

Z Man

New member
Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

1 Way,

I read most of this thread, and the common response from you after a person gives thier explanation is that they are wrong and avoided answering your question. :rolleyes:

You're a pathetic debater. That's why I could care less in having a discussion with you. No one is right except you. The bible is only meant to be interpreted the way you say so.

:vomit:

Please.... Spare us your religion...
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by Z Man

1 Way,

I read most of this thread, and the common response from you after a person gives thier explanation is that they are wrong and avoided answering your question. :rolleyes:

You're a pathetic debater. That's why I could care less in having a discussion with you. No one is right except you. The bible is only meant to be interpreted the way you say so.

:vomit:

Please.... Spare us your religion...

i seem to have missed where you originally stated what you think the passage means. could you perhaps direct me as to where it is? i'd be quite interested to read what you wrote. thanks.
 

Freak

New member
Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by Z Man

1 Way,

I read most of this thread, and the common response from you after a person gives thier explanation is that they are wrong and avoided answering your question. :rolleyes:

wrongway is a poster that types many words but conveys little spiritual meat.

You're a pathetic debater. That's why I could care less in having a discussion with you. No one is right except you. The bible is only meant to be interpreted the way you say so.

:vomit:

Please.... Spare us your religion...
A man who places plot materials over the Bible shouldn't be taken seriously.
 

Z Man

New member
Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i seem to have missed where you originally stated what you think the passage means. could you perhaps direct me as to where it is? i'd be quite interested to read what you wrote. thanks.
Sure thing. Here ya go.
 

Swordsman

New member
Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by Z Man

1 Way..........

No one is right except you.

Hence the username 1 Way :chuckle:
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by Z Man

Sure thing. Here ya go.

thanks :thumb:

so is what you posted off that website, the view you also hold? is that correct?
 
Last edited:

Z Man

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

thanks :thumb:

so is what you posted off that website, the view you also hold? is that correct?
Yes.
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by Z Man

Yes.

ok. but i'm not seeing anywhere where you tried to refute 1Way's points about God repenting and changing his mind. is there somewhere you did that?
 

Z Man

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

ok. but i'm not seeing anywhere where you tried to refute 1Way's points about God repenting and changing his mind. is there somewhere you did that?
Here ya go. If you notice, I replied to his statements. and then he totally ignores my answer and continues to ask the same questions, over and over again. Read the entire page to see how 1Way truely is one way. It's his way or you're wrong.
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Horrible thread... horrible posts... horrible debater....

Originally posted by Z Man

Here ya go. If you notice, I replied to his statements. and then he totally ignores my answer and continues to ask the same questions, over and over again. Read the entire page to see how 1Way truely is one way. It's his way or you're wrong.

ok, thank you. but i do have one question.

was God ever truly planning to destroy ninevah? did he really mean it when he said he was going to destroy them? or was it just a threat he knew he'd never implement because the ninevah people would repent?

thanks.
 

lee_merrill

New member
Addendum

Addendum

Hi everyone,

I appreciate what you wrote, Z man!

God is Truth: was God ever truly planning to destroy ninevah? did he really mean it when he said he was going to destroy them? or was it just a threat he knew he'd never implement because the ninevah people would repent?

Here's my 2c...

I agree with Z man, I think there was an implied condition, Jonah certainly thought so, and the Ninevites hoped so, and there was, it turns out. Otherwise God was lying to them (that's John Piper's point, by the way). And God does know what would happen if people act a certain way:

1SA 23:12 Again David asked, "Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?" And the Lord said, "They will."

So the Lord knew what would have happened if the Ninevites had not repented, they would have been destroyed.

You could also say that Ninevah was overthrown, but by repentance, and not by destruction, that the implied condition was for the threatened destruction, and not for "will be overthrown."

Blessings,
Lee
 

smaller

BANNED
Banned
God's Promise throughout the entire text is that SIN, EVIL, AND DEATH will be put away.

These "things" are not people, PEOPLE.

So does Calvinism LIMIT GOD?

Undoubtedly. Calvinism LIMITS Sovereignty all the while claiming to HOLD IT UP by saying that GOD CANNOT OVERCOME evil with GOOD. By not SWALLOWING UP death in VICTORY. By not ATONING for ALL.

The Word makes NO SUCH presentations, only MEN do.
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Re: Addendum

Re: Addendum

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

I appreciate what you wrote, Z man!



Here's my 2c...

I agree with Z man, I think there was an implied condition, Jonah certainly thought so, and the Ninevites hoped so, and there was, it turns out. Otherwise God was lying to them (that's John Piper's point, by the way). And God does know what would happen if people act a certain way:

1SA 23:12 Again David asked, "Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?" And the Lord said, "They will."

So the Lord knew what would have happened if the Ninevites had not repented, they would have been destroyed.

You could also say that Ninevah was overthrown, but by repentance, and not by destruction, that the implied condition was for the threatened destruction, and not for "will be overthrown."

Blessings,
Lee

ok, so let's suppose that the ninevah case is in line with Jeremiah and the statement "forty days and ninevah will be overthrown" is, in the mind of God, something that will occur only if they do not repent. but God knows that the ninevah people will in fact repent. so he knows that the statement "ninevah will be overthrown" is not true and is just a threat.

so the question is, did God ever really have in his mind the plan to destroy the ninevah people?


if not, does this mean God never planned to actually destroy ninevah?
 

Z Man

New member
Re: Re: Addendum

Re: Re: Addendum

Thanks Lee! Your 2c wasn't bad either. Good post! :thumb:
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

ok, so let's suppose that the ninevah case is in line with Jeremiah and the statement "forty days and ninevah will be overthrown" is, in the mind of God, something that will occur only if they do not repent. but God knows that the ninevah people will in fact repent. so he knows that the statement "ninevah will be overthrown" is not true and is just a threat.

so the question is, did God ever really have in his mind the plan to destroy the ninevah people?


if not, does this mean God never planned to actually destroy ninevah?
God threatened Ninevah so that they would repent. It's as simple as that. There was no destruction for them, obviously, since they repented, and since they never were destroyed!

God was being a Father. What do you do to your child when you desire a certain behavior from them?
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Re: Re: Re: Addendum

Re: Re: Re: Addendum

Originally posted by Z Man

Thanks Lee! Your 2c wasn't bad either. Good post! :thumb:

God threatened Ninevah so that they would repent. It's as simple as that. There was no destruction for them, obviously, since they repented, and since they never were destroyed!

God was being a Father. What do you do to your child when you desire a certain behavior from them?

so that would be a "no" right?
 

Z Man

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Addendum

Re: Re: Re: Re: Addendum

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

so that would be a "no" right?
Ummmm.... what do you think?

Where is this all leading?
 
Top