Against abortion and against person-hood?

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
The reason such is not discussed is primarily because the issue is patently necessary.
That doesn't really track. You don't discuss the fact that you only differ with the guy to your left ( the left being further by one degree or another toward conception on that chronological line) because it's patently necessary that you do so?

It isn't true. It isn't for any of you, as per the argument proffered. Or, while I accept that anyone may feel compelled to a point, I'm not arguing feeling or asking after it.

It simply doesn't warrant a specific debate.
I can see why you wouldn't want it to, but in fact it is important to note that everyone else subscribes to the very thing so many of you announce as the very thing to be avoided, the subordination of the rights of the woman to make a reproductive choice. You only differ as to the where on that line...So among those competing with my approach are a host of prostitutes arguing that virtue is determined by price. :plain:

How else are rules, rights and boundaries levied if not collectively agreed upon, arbitrarily so?
"We hold these truths (rights) to be self evident" is how we managed it. That's the context. Anything is arguable. Is everything then arbitrary? It's a longer argument, but I'd take the "no" side and we can have that argument at some point if or as time permits.

The devil's clearly in the details, so to speak, or rather the particular circumstances pursuant to the idealized reverence for life
Rather, we recognize the necessity of its protection as the foundation without which any right is meaningless.

Your argument is specifically contrived to circumvent by preemption the very circumstances involving and defining abortion.
My argument wasn't designed, let alone contrived, to do anything of the sort. It began as a simple recognition of the frame work of right and law and proceeded along its points. The circumstances involving and defining abortion aren't unconsidered. In fact, I noted that the defense of the mother's life can be advanced in the discussion. The question does preempt the assumption of Roe in asserting as it must that Roe risks without justification the thing we cannot do in the name of a right it creates to attempt to do so.

I'm not saying this in defense of abortion per se, but rather in objection to your specific line of reasoning.
I'm still waiting on that particular objection.

It's fallacious, disingenuous, while - as exposed - no less arbitrary a position.
It is not in any sense fallacious, there being nothing demonstrably mistaken in it. There is nothing disingenuous about it, as I meant every word I wrote and am not pretending to know a thing I don't. When I was faithless, unconcerned about the notion of some overriding morality and concerned primarily with the cohesive nature of my own standards I took a hard look at abortion and came to a measured conclusion. It is precisely because that argument proceeded from reason and not from faith that it rankles so many who see the division on point as one of religion vs the secular fold. It simply isn't.

In the spirit of due diligence...your position falls intentionally and abysmally short.
No, due diligence isn't a string of accusations, assumptions and assertions. Nor is it a declaration of subjective valuation at the end of those. How you feel about it is of no interest to me. If you can do anything objectively about that feeling I'm content to meet the attempt...that I'm still waiting on while I mostly hear additional declared valuations like the flag you only just waved at me or worse, attempts to frame and kill the messenger.

Meanwhile, the argument remains. I only returned to this because you misstated it. I'll only remain or revisit when necessary to avoid anyone being the least bit confused on the points I've made or my willingness to engage on them.
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
:mock: The 1st World

reverting back into classical Rome. Abortion, homosexuality, an eventual death by excessive government..

And Christians, who not only let it happen, but in a big way supported it.
:rotfl:



And soon


CRfyA8UUsAAaCcy.png



Good job, know it alls!
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
No, due diligence isn't a string of accusations, assumptions and assertions. Nor is it a declaration of subjective valuation at the end of those. How you feel about it is of no interest to me.

At least be honest and admit your position cannot even approach any effort at diligence....lest any peek behind the curtain will expose the moral reasoning whereas the unborn hold no esteemed moral right to a woman's body any more than a rapist may. Alas, all being equally exposed simply pits one moral position against another...which, in turn, lends itself to the notion of choice.

Are you honest enough to cede this point?
 

glassjester

Well-known member
At least be honest and admit your position cannot even approach any effort at diligence....lest any peek behind the curtain will expose the moral reasoning whereas the unborn hold no esteemed moral right to a woman's body any more than a rapist may. Alas, all being equally exposed simply pits one moral position against another...which, in turn, lends itself to the notion of choice.

Are you honest enough to cede this point?

You've wrongly summarized his argument as follows:
The unborn human has a right to life, therefore the unborn human has a right to life.

If that was actually the argument, you'd be right to call it nonsense.
But no one's making that ridiculous argument.


Start with this. Human beings, at some point in their development, have a right to life.

Do you agree or disagree?
 

quip

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Banned
You've wrongly summarized his argument as follows:
The unborn human has a right to life, therefore the unborn human has a right to life.

If that was actually the argument, you'd be right to call it nonsense.
But no one's making that ridiculous argument.

Well, no. the argument goes as follows: Humans (at least post-natal ones) have rights to life, thus by default the unborn (being human) has an equal right to life.

On the surface it's a sound argument though, there are contingencies which challenge this leap of logic.


Start with this. Human beings, at some point in their development, have a right to life.

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree...while birth seems the reasonable, non-arguable point. You disagree...why?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
At least be honest and admit your position cannot even approach any effort at diligence....lest any peek behind the curtain will expose the moral reasoning whereas the unborn hold no esteemed moral right to a woman's body any more than a rapist may. Alas, all being equally exposed simply pits one moral position against another...which, in turn, lends itself to the notion of choice.

Are you honest enough to cede this point?

People that are pro-choice love to talk about rights and hate to talk about responsibilities.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
I agree...while birth seems the reasonable point. You disagree...why?

What gives any humans a right to life? Their location? Their size? Their usefulness to others? Their physical abilities? Their cognitive abilities? Their age?

Or their being human?


Birth is a change in location. If it was a human being that came out, then it was a human being the day before, too. Change of location does not change a thing's essence, or substance.
 

quip

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Banned
What gives any humans a right to life? Their location? Their size? Their usefulness to others? Their physical abilities? Their cognitive abilities? Their age?

Or their being human?

Perhaps some or all the above...perhaps even more.


Birth is a change in location. If it was a human being that came out, then it was a human being the day before, too. Change of location does not change a thing's essence, or substance.

I'm not musing philosophically regarding "essences" or "substances"...I'm arguing the ugly realities of abortion.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Perhaps some or all the above...perhaps even more.

But we agree that human beings do indeed have a right to life.
What you seem to be saying in the statement above, is that you do not know why humans have a right to life.

If we do not know what particular factors grant humans a right to be alive, then we cannot know when that right is granted.




I'm not musing philosophically regarding "essences" or "substances"...

You really should.



I'm arguing the ugly realities of abortion.

Ugly? Would you prefer that there were less abortions?
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
But we agree that human beings do indeed have a right to life.
What you seem to be saying in the statement above, is that you do not know why humans have a right to life.

If we do not know what particular factors grant humans a right to be alive, then we cannot know when that right is granted.

Perhaps. Though, it's quite clear at birth, no ambiguities exist.





You really should.

I do..just not now.



Ugly? Would you prefer that there were less abortions?

Certainly!
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
At least be honest and admit your position cannot even approach any effort at diligence.
That wouldn't be honest of me and it isn't a description of the argument, which remains considered and apparently persevering.

lest any peak behind the curtain will expose the moral reasoning
Again there's no "curtain" only an argument that sits plainly enough and there's only reasoning, offered as plainly.

whereas the unborn hold no esteemed moral right to a woman's body any more than a rapist may.
Leaving off a lamentable comparison, this isn't about a right to the woman's body. It remains about the right to be and where that right may be found and what can be done to refrain from doing that which we have no right to do. The Court in Roe made a horrible mistake, one every position outside of the argument makes and in doing so created a right it and every other argument break faith with where it suits them.

Alas, all being equally exposed simply pits one moral position against another...which, in turn, lends itself to the notion of choice.
Which would be problematic were the argument the thing it isn't, the thing all other approaches in play necessarily are.

Are you honest enough to cede this point?
I would only be dishonest were I to cede the point. The argument remains.
 
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