about Bob's article on absolute or relative time

[Memento Mori]

I have no idea about how to measure muons. Can you outline the process?

Muons are created when high energy cosmic rays contact the upper atmosphere and decay. Muons decay into new particles in about 2 microseconds. Muons should not (or at least very few) be observed at the surface of the earth because 2 microseconds is not enough time for them to reach the surface of the earth. Here's a site that outlines how to detect muons.

Although their lifetime without relativistic effects would allow a half-survival distance of only about 0.66 km at most (Wiki). But they reach the surface from 9 km up...

 

[Stripe]

Well, you take pozzolane, dan1el and Memento Mori and have them stand at full attention. Then you take a tape measure. Oh, you said "muons." Never mind.

:rotfl:

 

[Stripe]

Muons are created when high energy cosmic rays contact the upper atmosphere and decay. Muons decay into new particles in about 2 microseconds. Muons should not (or at least very few) be observed at the surface of the earth because 2 microseconds is not enough time for them to reach the surface of the earth. Here's a site that outlines how to detect muons.

Although their lifetime without relativistic effects would allow a half-survival distance of only about 0.66 km at most (Wiki). But they reach the surface from 9 km up...

Ah, OK. Well that doesn't have much to do with the measuring equipment, does it?

Why do you insist that 2 microseconds is not enough time for muons to reach the Earth's surface when clearly it is?

 

[Memento Mori]

Ah, OK. Well that doesn't have much to do with the measuring equipment, does it?

Why do you insist that 2 microseconds is not enough time for muons to reach the Earth's surface when clearly it is?

Velocity equals distance divided by time (v=x/t). Velocity equals 99.8% the speed of light (.998c). So the velocity multiplied by the time is the maximum distance a single muon should be able to travel (vt=x). .998(3.00x10⁸) (2x10^-6) = 598.8m. So, 600 meters. But we observe muons on the surface of the earth which is 9000m.

 

[Stripe]

Velocity equals distance divided by time (v=x/t). Velocity equals 99.8% the speed of light (.998c). So the velocity multiplied by the time is the maximum distance a single muon should be able to travel (vt=x). .998(3.00x10⁸) (2x10^-6) = 598.8m. So, 600 meters. But we observe muons on the surface of the earth which is 9000m.

But why is the distance limited? We observe muons on the Earth's surface so why do you insist that they cannot travel that far?

 

[Memento Mori]

But why is the distance limited? We observe muons on the Earth's surface so why do you insist that they cannot travel that far?

Exactly! The only reason muons are observed at the surface is because of the effects of Special Relativity. What would be 2 microseconds to us is not 2 microseconds to the muon particle. This is the best evidence of Special Relativity of which I'm aware.

 

[Johnny]

But why is the distance limited? We observe muons on the Earth's surface so why do you insist that they cannot travel that far?

He didn't say they can't. He said they "should not". They should not under non-relativistic models. Not that this matters. You've already established that you're not interested in theories, just some guesswork and a sprinkle of magic.

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/then-a-miracle-happens.gif

 

[Stripe]

Exactly! The only reason muons are observed at the surface is because of the effects of Special Relativity.

Or perhaps there is another reason. :idunno:

What would be 2 microseconds to us is not 2 microseconds to the muon particle. This is the best evidence of Special Relativity of which I'm aware.

I'll keep that in mind

 

[Memento Mori]

Or perhaps there is another reason. :idunno:

Well this explains the phenomenon perfectly. I would love to hear an alternative though. It would be very interesting (I would hope, anyways). But for now, Special Relativity is the best supported answer for this (I realize this is a fallacy of exclusivity but it is well supported and observable).

 

[Stripe]

Well this explains the phenomenon perfectly.

So does suggesting that a wormhole opens for each muon to travel through to the Earth's surface... :idunno:

I would love to hear an alternative though. It would be very interesting

I don't know enough about what's going on to comment much. Why is it that muons cannot travel 9000m through the atmosphere without dissipating? To an uninformed observer that is exactly what they do.

 

[Memento Mori]

So does suggesting that a wormhole opens for each muon to travel through to the Earth's surface... :idunno:

Except that we would definitely see that with other things like... airplanes... weather balloons... etc. They would come down missing huge chunks...

I don't know enough about what's going on to comment much. Why is it that muons cannot travel 9000m through the atmosphere without dissipating? To an uninformed observer that is exactly what they do.

Well here's the equation for time dilation: Delta-t' = Delta-t ( 1 / sqrt[1 - v^2/c^2]). If we put in 99%c (the average speed of a muon particle [that I could find on short notice]) for v and 2 microseconds in for Delta-t. Then, Delta-t' becomes 15.6 microseconds (this is to us). However, this many microseconds still isn't enough for the muon to reach earth: 5940m (as opposed to our previously stated 9000m). This is where length contraction comes into play. The equation for length contraction is
L = Lo sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) (where Lo is the "proper length" [so called by physicists] and L is the contracted length). So put in 9000m and 99%c and you should come up with about 1260 meters which is more than enough of a contraction for a muon to make it. This is why we find so many muons at earths surface and can be found quite deep in the earth too

*I'm pretty sure about the calculations but I really hate this stupid computer calculator and I don't have a functioning scientific one. I need some new batteries . If not Johnny or someone can call me on it. It has been over a year since I've learned this.

 

[Stripe]

Well here's the equation for time dilation: Delta-t' = Delta-t ( 1 / sqrt[1 - v^2/c^2]). If we put in 99%c (the average speed of a muon particle [that I could find on short notice]) for v and 2 microseconds in for Delta-t. Then, Delta-t' becomes 15.6 microseconds (this is to us). However, this many microseconds still isn't enough for the muon to reach earth: 5940m (as opposed to our previously stated 9000m). This is where length contraction comes into play. The equation for length contraction is
L = Lo sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) (where Lo is the "proper length" [so called by physicists] and L is the contracted length). So put in 9000m and 99%c and you should come up with about 1260 meters which is more than enough of a contraction for a muon to make it. This is why we find so many muons at earths surface and can be found quite deep in the earth too

That's nice, MM. Except it does nothing to answer my question.

Why is it that muons cannot travel 9000m through the atmosphere without dissipating?

 

[Memento Mori]

That's nice, MM. Except it does nothing to answer my question.

Why is it that muons cannot travel 9000m through the atmosphere without dissipating?

Man. And I checked my math like 3 times with about 5 different references to make sure I did it right... ugh...

Well, muons don't "dissipate." They decay. So I'll pretend you said decay instead. Because they decay in 2 microseconds which I've already shown to not be enough time to travel through the 9000 meters of atmosphere even at 99% the speed of light using Newton's motion equations...

Velocity equals distance divided by time (v=x/t). Velocity equals 99.8% the speed of light (.998c). So the velocity multiplied by the time is the maximum distance a single muon should be able to travel (vt=x). .998(3.00x108) (2x10-6) = 598.8m. So, 600 meters. But we observe muons on the surface of the earth which is 9000m.

Forgive me quoting myself.

 

[chair]

...
Well, muons don't "dissipate." They decay. ...

Stripe,

Muons don't "dissipate". They decay, as has been explained. Do you need an explanation of what 'decay' means in this context? Or will you at some point admit that you just don't know enough about physics to be able to consider these the topics seriously?

 

[Stripe]

Because they decay in 2 microseconds

How do you know?

 

[Stripe]

Stripe,

Muons don't "dissipate". They decay, as has been explained. Do you need an explanation of what 'decay' means in this context? Or will you at some point admit that you just don't know enough about physics to be able to consider these the topics seriously?

Chair. You are gay.

Seriously, that's the gayest response I think I've ever read on TOL.

That's more gay than the time P66 said he was gay.

 

[Memento Mori]

How do you know?

Wiki

Muon Lifetime (Page 3)

Muon life (Page 2)

I didn't just pull this number out of my butt. Can you demonstrate that muons don't decay in 2 microseconds?

It seems to me you're just nitpicking now. But it's fine, I'll continue to answer your questions as best I can.

 

[chair]

Chair. You are gay.

Seriously, that's the gayest response I think I've ever read on TOL.

That's more gay than the time P66 said he was gay.

Does calling me gay help you understand modern physics somehow?
Why is it so hard for you to admit that you don't know everything about everything, and that you are not qualified to pass judgment on things you know little about?

Modesty is not your strong point. You are pretty damn good at throwing out the quick irrelevant stupid insult.

 

[Stripe]

Can you demonstrate that muons don't decay in 2 microseconds?

Given that they can reach Earth from 9000m I would say that is already shown.

It seems to me you're just nitpicking now. But it's fine, I'll continue to answer your questions as best I can.

I'm not nitpicking. I'm GNATpicking. This has already been explained to you.

 

[Stripe]

I still cannot find an answer to my question. How do you know that the muon can only survive a given distance?