Abiogenesis: Is the RNA hypothesis dead?

Skeptic

New member
writer said:
"science" simply means "knowledge."
Science is not a body of knowledge. It is a way of acquiring tentative knowledge. Science does not give us absolute proof of anything. It only allows us to confirm our observations and understanding to a point where it is reasonable to give at least temporary support, until new and contrary evidence comes along. Knowledge acquired through science is always open to challenge and verification by others via the scientific method, which eventually forces us to consider the possibility that our knowledge is flawed. ... Faith, on the other hand, is belief despite the absence of evidence and encourages us to ignore this possibility. That's why faith is never a virtue.

Creation, by definition, is an expansion. It's a creation. It's not a "steady-state"
Supernatural creation, by definition, is magically making something from nothing. Expansion is the increase in size or volume of something, not something from nothing.
 

writer

New member
81

81

81 Science is not a body of knowledge.
Science is knowledge

It is a way of acquiring tentative knowledge.
Science includes real knowledge.
Not merely "tentative" knowledge

Science does not give us absolute proof of anything.
Depends on what u mean by "absolute."
For instance, i absolutely know that if i cut myself now, i'll bleed

It only allows us to confirm our observations and understanding to a point where it is reasonable to give at least temporary support, until new and contrary evidence comes along.
To the contrary: science, knowledge, includes real knowledge.
Not merely theories

Knowledge acquired through science is always open to challenge and verification by others via the scientific method,
all knowledge's "open to challenge and verification by others" via various methods which they might wanna employ

...which eventually forces us to consider the possibility that our knowledge is flawed.
If some "scientists" were honest or diligent: they'd consider that possibility beforehand

Faith, on the other hand, is belief despite the absence of evidence...
Faith is the conviction of things not seen.
Which means not that it's not "evidence," but means that it's unseen

...and encourages us to ignore this possibility.
Genuine faith, like some knowledge, can be absolute. Such as the presence of the sun. Or blood under my skin.
The blood under my skin, i guess, "encourages" me to ignore the possibility that it's not under my skin

That's why faith is never a virtue.
U may neither have ever experienced faith (per the Bible),
nor yet know what it is

Supernatural creation, by definition, is magically making something from nothing.
To the contrary: God's neither nothing,
nor magic

Expansion is the increase in size or volume of something, not something from nothing.
To the contrary: expansion's either more volume or "more stuff" regardless where it came from
 
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Skeptic

New member
writer said:
Science is knowledge
That is an overly broad and useless definition. ... Is science any knowledge? If science is knowledge, then knowledge is science. Is the knowledge that you got out of bed this morning science? Is knowledge of what is written in the Bible science?

Science is a system of acquiring knowledge using the scientific method. The term "science" can generally refer to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system (i.e. "scientific knowledge"), but merely saying that "science is knowledge" says nothing meaningful.

Science includes real knowledge.
Not merely "tentative" knowledge
Real knowledge about how the world works is tentative. This is because we never have all of the facts. We base our knowledge on the available evidence, which will always be less than the entire possible body of evidence. We can never know what kind of discoveries the future will bring that might modify our current body of scientific knowledge. It would be quite naive to think otherwise. Therefore, real scientific knowledge is always tentative.

Depends on what u mean by "absolute."
For instance, i absolutely know that if i cut myself now, i'll bleed
I'm talking about our scientific understanding about how things work. Our theories might explain things pretty well for a while, then, perhaps a century later, new evidence leads scientists to formulate even better theories that account for more detailed observations.

We can't even know with 100% certainty that the laws of physics today will be the same laws of physics tomorrow. We can feel pretty confident that the laws will probably be the same tomorrow. But, in order to boldly claim 100% certainty, we would have to have access to 100% percent of the possible knowledge about the universe. This we will never have.

To the contrary: science, knowledge, includes real knowledge.
Not merely theories
Again, real scientific knowledge is tentative. ... "Mere" theories?
In everyday use, the word "theory" often means an untested hunch, or a guess without supporting evidence. But for scientists, a theory has nearly the opposite meaning. A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts. The theory of gravitation, for instance, explains why apples fall from trees and astronauts float in space. Similarly, the theory of evolution explains why so many plants and animals—some very similar and some very different—exist on Earth now and in the past, as revealed by the fossil record.

A theory not only explains known facts; it also allows scientists to make predictions of what they should observe if a theory is true. Scientific theories are testable. New evidence should be compatible with a theory. If it isn't, the theory is refined or rejected. The longer the central elements of a theory hold—the more observations it predicts, the more tests it passes, the more facts it explains—the stronger the theory.

source

If some "scientists" were honest or diligent: they'd consider that possibility beforehand
Scientists are only human. Most scientists do consider that possibility. ... Do you allow for the possibility that your knowledge is flawed regarding evolution and abiogenesis? Or are you in possession of unchanging absolute knowledge regarding those topics?

Faith is the conviction of things not seen.
Which means not that it's not "evidence," but means that it's unseen
The conviction that something is true, without having seen any evidence that it is true, is not a rational conviction.

Genuine faith, like some knowledge, can be absolute. Such as the presence of the sun. Or blood under my skin.
Are you 100% certain that the laws of physics as we know them today will never change? ... If your answer is yes, then your view is not scientific.

U may neither have ever experienced faith (per the Bible),
nor yet know what it is
I once had faith in the Bible. Fortunately, I recovered my reasoning skills.

To the contrary: God's neither nothing,
nor magic
According to your fairy tales and superstitions.

To the contrary: expansion's "more stuff." Regardless where it came from
More stuff from some stuff would be expansion.

Stuff from no stuff is not expansion. It is *POOf*!
 

writer

New member
83

83

83 Is science any knowledge?
sure

Is the knowledge that you got out of bed this morning science?
yes

Is knowledge of what is written in the Bible science?
u could call it beginning steps of science of the Bible

Science is a system of acquiring knowledge using the scientific method.
i got outa bed

"science" can generally refer to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system (i.e. "scientific knowledge"), but merely saying that "science is knowledge" says nothing meaningful.
To the contrary: saying "science" means "knowledge" means "science" means "knowledge"

Real knowledge about how the world works is tentative.
No it isn't. It's definitive. The earth rotated on its axis is not tentative

This is because we never have all of the facts.
Which fact r u missin 'bout sunrise or me gettin outa bed?

We base our knowledge on the available evidence, which will always be less than the entire possible body of evidence.
So, lemme get this straight. You're not sure the sun "rose" this morning?
R u sure you wrote your post?
Or did u tentatively write it?

We can never know what kind of discoveries the future will bring that might modify our current body of scientific knowledge.
So someday mebbe you'll discover u don't exist?

It would be quite naive to think otherwise.
Depends on the knowledge, or what you're thinking about

Therefore, real scientific knowledge is always tentative.
Depends on what thing specific you're talkin about

I'm talking about our scientific understanding about how things work.
cutting 'n bleeding works

Our theories might explain things pretty well for a while, then, perhaps a century later, new evidence leads scientists to formulate even better theories that account for more detailed observations.
On?

We can't even know with 100% certainty that the laws of physics today will be the same laws of physics tomorrow.
Why not?

We can feel pretty confident that the laws will probably be the same tomorrow. But, in order to boldly claim 100% certainty, we would have to have access to 100% percent of the possible knowledge about the universe. This we will never have.
Why not?

In everyday use, the word "theory" often means an untested hunch, or a guess without supporting evidence. But for scientists, a theory has nearly the opposite meaning.
That seems to be a misrepresentation on your part. "Theory" essentially means guess, however well-supported or not

A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts. The theory of gravitation, for instance, explains why apples fall from trees and astronauts float in space. Similarly, the theory of evolution explains why so many plants and animals—some very similar and some very different—exist on Earth now and in the past, as revealed by the fossil record.
Gravity, i find substantiated. Evolution, not

A theory not only explains known facts; it also allows scientists to make predictions of what they should observe if a theory is true.
That's what a guess does

Do you allow for the possibility that your knowledge is flawed regarding evolution and abiogenesis?
I allow that God's not flawed. I allow that Evolution and abiogenesis r flawed because i know they r. Per our previous discussions

Or are you in possession of unchanging absolute knowledge regarding those topics?
possess Jesus Christ

The conviction that something is true, without having seen any evidence that it is true, is not a rational conviction.
Man possesses other senses besides sight.
You've seen that

Are you 100% certain that the laws of physics as we know them today will never change?
no. I know they were made by their Creator

According to your fairy tales and superstitions.
God. Jesus. i love You 'n help me to enjoy U more

Stuff from no stuff is not expansion.
it's only God can
 
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Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
writer said:
Gravity, i find substantiated. Evolution, not
Just a nit-pick. But Gravity is an effect we see, and there are some competing theories about how it works. So it does not properly analogize to evolution. The proper analogy is that Life is an effect we see and there are competing theories about how it works. Unfortunately for evolution, it is a terrible life-explaning theory, that has most of the data against it.
 

writer

New member
nit pick

nit pick

Just a nit-pick. But Gravity is an effect we see, and there are some competing theories about how it works.
mebbe, if u want, u c'n amplify laymenly on 'em. 'N which u think's best

Life is an effect we see and there are competing theories about how it works.
Life is God. Not pantheistically. God's eternal life. A life that never's not.
I'm guessin that, thus far, a gentleman like Mr. Skeptic's might b unable yet, or duzn't want, to c life's superiority to nonlife

Unfortunately for evolution, it is a terrible life-explaning theory, that has most of the data against it.
i 'gree Evolution's a joke. A fairy-tale. A nonreality.
Sum Evolutionists try'n deflect from their theory at this point by pointing out that strictly-speakin Evolution duzn't explain life's existence. Only its variety. Some specify that abiogenesis is their alternative-to-God explanation o' life.
Take care
 
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