A problem with open theism (HOF thread)
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julie21
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Why does that it in any way negate our freedom? It clearly doesn't, as our freedom is acted on by us as individuals...with God merely having the 'foreknowledge' of the free will choice we will make.
I know at times what my child will do in a given circumstance, but that does not mean that I have 'negated' in any way his free will to choose the way he eventually does. But my having the sometimes foreknowledge[ as opposed to God's always] , allows me as a parent to set up contingency plans for what will happen when his choice is made.
God doesn't have the problem I have, in not knowing EXACTLY what contingency plan is needed, as He knows EXACTLY what is going to be chosen, and so the future is set from our choices and reactions.
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A question for Julie21 and LeeM, and DocRob.
But first, some facts.
God knows the future exhaustively before He creates the world.
He decides (or, has decided, acutally) to create the world in a certain way.
However, if God creates the world differently, all of history is changed.
More to the point, if God creates man differently, things would turn out differently.
So the question: did God actually create anything? or was God simply a slave to His forknowledge and was God unable to deviate from His blueprint thought of in all eternity?
And when that question is answered, see if what you came up with fits with the blueprint that was made. The blueprint includes great evil that God does not want.
But first, some facts.
God knows the future exhaustively before He creates the world.
He decides (or, has decided, acutally) to create the world in a certain way.
However, if God creates the world differently, all of history is changed.
More to the point, if God creates man differently, things would turn out differently.
So the question: did God actually create anything? or was God simply a slave to His forknowledge and was God unable to deviate from His blueprint thought of in all eternity?
And when that question is answered, see if what you came up with fits with the blueprint that was made. The blueprint includes great evil that God does not want.
Knight said:
Calvinists make sense of this with predestination and decrees. This seems to me to be at the expense of libertarian free will.
Arminians resort to simple foreknowledge. This only seems coherent if the future has already happened to be an object of knowledge, which it has not.
Open Theism correctly recognizes that exhaustive foreknowledge and genuine free will cannot coexist. Either we give up exhaustive foreknowledge or free will. This seems hard for some to grasp, but it is logically defensible. Trying to have their cake and eat it too is not possible.
docrob57 said:
High probability/predictability is still not certainty/actuality.
Free will is not cause-effect.
God knows I have to work on Friday. I intend to work on Friday. I may get hit by a car if I ride my bike tomorrow. I may or may not ride my bike and may or may not die if I do ride it. I also might get fired or sick before or during my shift. A family member may commit suicide or get run over and I may not go to work. None of these things are knowable or predictable trillions of years in advance as a certainty. The future has not happened yet. Contingencies preclude exhaustive, certain foreknowledge.
docrob57 said:
Genuine freedom with alternatives and an equal possibility of x or y preclude perfect knowledge. Choice A or B may or may not happen and is unknowable, except as possible, before the choice is made. One can predict what an individual is likely to do, but this is not causative or a necessity. Probability does not exclude out of character choices or other contingencies affecting actual choices and outcomes.
Freak said:
I chose to love the unlovely. I did not know I liked chocolate until I tried it. I discovered I liked chocolate. There are other things that I did not like, but I chose to try them and eventually acquired a taste. I now like them. I could have chosen to never try them again and never develop a taste. I am not sure it is either/or, but both/and. It also varies for what we are talking about. I do not like beer. I could chose to keep trying it, and would probably find a beer I liked. I could never try a beer again, or I could discover I liked some beer, or I could keep chosing to try it until I acquired a taste.
Your point?
julie21 said:
You are still talking about possibilities and probabilities. Just because you correctly predict some of the future does not mean you could predict all of the future (nor could God). Certainty/actuality is only known as such AFTER the free will choices, not before. Simple foreknowledge or exhaustive foreknowledge is not compatible with future free will contingencies. You do not see this yet, but it is logically defensible.
:box:
julie21
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Yorzhik said:
The facts... God created the world exactly as He created it, and He did not create it differently to what He wanted His creation of the world to be, therefore with regard to the creation of the world in that 6 day period, things turned out as He created, therefore there was no difference from His original 'creation of the world' plan, to the finished creation within the 6 days.
Evil came into the world as a free will choice, made originally by satan and his minion of fallen angels. This then affected our original parents and so on down the line.
With evil comes the chance to learn...Adam and Eve learnt from the evil which they did as a result of their free will choice, just as many of us do, each ime we make a wrong choice. If we only had the choice of choosing good, then there would not be much choice, would there?
julie21
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godrulz said:
You are really limiting our almighty and powerful God...He can and does predict all of the future.
To US in our very limited capacity as humans, you are correct.
But with God, the all knowing, almighty God, it is known before the event!
Our simple foreknowledge or exhaustive foreknowledge is not compatible with future free will contingencies, because we are mortal , but God is Soooo much more than that! He knows everything to the end of all time.
Why do you people insist on limiting this wondrous and powerful God that we have?
julie21 said:
The Open View does NOT limit God. We would reject it if it did.
There is a difference between predicting the future (your words) and knowing it as a certainty before it comes into existence.
If foreknowledge and freedom is incoherent for us, it is also incoherent for God.
Let's start s-l-o-w-l-y.
Does it limit God's omnipotence to say that He cannot create a rock too heavy to lift? This classic stupid question is an absurdity or logical contradiction. It is not a conundrum for God, nor does God's inability to do this limit His omnipotence. God cannot make a square circle. So?!
(you might not understand this yet, but it is defensible):
"As omnipotence is limited by the possible, so omniscience is limited by the knowable. We do not limit omnipotence by denying its power to do impossible or self-contradictory things (make a dog a cat at the same time; make black white; make 2+2=4 and 25 at the same time, etc.); neither do we limit omniscience by denying its power to foreknow unknowable things."
There is a difference between past, present, and future, possible/probable, certain, necessary, and actual (modal logic). Blurring the distinction leads to your wrong conclusions.
:sam:
julie21
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Post 781198 was in reference to Yorzhik's question from a previous post.
Bad choice of word useage on my part when it comes to God's part in all of this. Our's is predictive...His is known.
If God desires to make His own personal circle into a square, I am sure that He could if He wanted too. See, He is the Creator, thus He can create anything He pleases.At this point in our lives and time, circles are circles and squares are squares.
But you see, it is in all likelihood we 'smart' humans that are blurring the distinctions with the concept of modal logic, but not neccessarily God. He knows it all, without any probability factor needing to be calculated or thrown in on His part, right down the line to eternity.
Are you kidding? How can anything be incoherent for God? His ways are not our ways and we cannot know all of them....otherwise who would we be?
Bad choice of word useage on my part when it comes to God's part in all of this. Our's is predictive...His is known.
This is the One who performs miracles...He has shown us exactly what He can do if He desires to do it...eg water into wine, burning bush, manna from Heaven...I am not going to debate the fact that God can do whatever He pleases, excepting for those things that He has decreed He cannot do as they go against His very nature as God.
If God desires to make His own personal circle into a square, I am sure that He could if He wanted too. See, He is the Creator, thus He can create anything He pleases.At this point in our lives and time, circles are circles and squares are squares.
That's right...for us that is. And we will one day have the opportunity to see who has actually drawn the right or wrong conclusions.
But you see, it is in all likelihood we 'smart' humans that are blurring the distinctions with the concept of modal logic, but not neccessarily God. He knows it all, without any probability factor needing to be calculated or thrown in on His part, right down the line to eternity.
Julie,
God cannot do the logically absurd. God, no matter how hard He tried could not make a perfect sphere with sharp corners. Not because of any lack of wisdom or power on His part but because it cannot be done at all. It is a self contradictory concept; to do it is to not do it, it is therefore undoable.
There are many such logical contradiction that cannot be done. Knowing (not simply predicting but knowing absolutely) what a person will do 50 years from now if that person has a free will, is one of them. This is again, not because of some lack of power of wisdom on God's part, it has nothing to do with that. It's because freedom of the will and exhaustive foreknowledge are mutually exclusive concepts. You simply cannot have one and the other remain because if God knows what I will do then I have no ability to do otherwise and that's the very definition of what it means to have a free will; the ability to do or to do otherwise.
Resting in Him,
Clete
God cannot do the logically absurd. God, no matter how hard He tried could not make a perfect sphere with sharp corners. Not because of any lack of wisdom or power on His part but because it cannot be done at all. It is a self contradictory concept; to do it is to not do it, it is therefore undoable.
There are many such logical contradiction that cannot be done. Knowing (not simply predicting but knowing absolutely) what a person will do 50 years from now if that person has a free will, is one of them. This is again, not because of some lack of power of wisdom on God's part, it has nothing to do with that. It's because freedom of the will and exhaustive foreknowledge are mutually exclusive concepts. You simply cannot have one and the other remain because if God knows what I will do then I have no ability to do otherwise and that's the very definition of what it means to have a free will; the ability to do or to do otherwise.
Resting in Him,
Clete
julie21
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The very definition of what it means to have a free will is that God gives us this to make our own choices in life...simple and clear, without your other bit being added on to it.
I do not concede the point you make Clete re our free will being limited by God's foreknowledge of our choices that we do make.
God knows exactly what I am going to do because it is I who is going to do it...not Him commmanding it to be done, but merely His having the sovereign power to know everything there is to know about me, His creation. Therefore I enact my power of free will, as given to me by Him, and He has the foreknowledge of what my choices will be. Without coercion from Him.
For us, yes. For Him, no.
I have to be out early, so must leave off for now. Will look in hopefully later tomorrow night maybe.
What other bit? I agree that we have free will because God decided to make us with one. But words have meaning Julie and ideas have consequences. You can't just say this is that way and that is this way because you want it to be that way. Contradictions cannot coexist, that's why they call them contradictions.julie21 said:
If having a free will means that I have the ability to do or to do otherwise then God simply cannot know the future because I would not be able to do contrary to His foreknowledge and I would therefore not be free.
That's fine. I recommend that you at least make an attempt to refute it Biblically or by sound reason.
Do not misunderstand me, I am not saying that God's foreknowledge is causing my action nor am I saying that God is using any form of coercion at all. I'm simply saying that if God knows absolutely that I will do a certain thing then I have no ability to do otherwise and I therefore do not have a free will by definition.
No, you misunderstand. I am not saying that God can't because He is like we are. I'm saying that is cannot be done, period. God cannot do the absurd. He cannot go to a place that does not exist, He cannot make a stone idol more powerful than Himself, He cannot do the logically absurd because to do them it to not do them. It makes no sense to insist that God can do something that remains undone when He's finished.
I'll look forward to your response. :thumb:
Resting in Him,
Clete
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