Wow! :first: POTD!Clete said:
A problem with open theism (HOF thread)
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Having skimmed the posts it seems that the impass that I left on Friday has not disappeared, and there is no reason to believe it would have. I see that the matter of prophecy has entered the discussion, and, to me, this would seem to be a particular problem for the OV.
It appears that the main response to the question of causality is to substitute the concept "free will." Free will is sort of a black box. We are to assume, it would seem, that free will choices are supposed to "just happen." They are not caused by anything, and are, therefore, unpredictable.
Another argument seems to be that at times God intervenes, which changes the causal path, and, again, the future becomes unpredictable.
The matter of causality as it relates to human behavior is extremely complex. Far moreso than we could ever really wrap our arms around. As I have said previously, however, we should not impose our limitations on God. To say that a free will choice is uncaused is simply absurd. I have given several examples along the way that indicate how causal mechanisms impact free will decisions. If decisions and actions are subject to causal processes, then God can foreknow them, there really is no way around that.
As to divine intervention, it seems to me preposterous to argue that God cannot know the outcome of His intervention. Intervention may change the causal path, it no doubt does. But then a new causal sequence emerges, and this sequence, again is not beyond the knowledge of God.
I would appreciate it if any of the OV brethren could address these points without resorting to "free will," which is simply not relevant to the argument. In the alternative, please specify how you think free will choices come about.
It appears that the main response to the question of causality is to substitute the concept "free will." Free will is sort of a black box. We are to assume, it would seem, that free will choices are supposed to "just happen." They are not caused by anything, and are, therefore, unpredictable.
Another argument seems to be that at times God intervenes, which changes the causal path, and, again, the future becomes unpredictable.
The matter of causality as it relates to human behavior is extremely complex. Far moreso than we could ever really wrap our arms around. As I have said previously, however, we should not impose our limitations on God. To say that a free will choice is uncaused is simply absurd. I have given several examples along the way that indicate how causal mechanisms impact free will decisions. If decisions and actions are subject to causal processes, then God can foreknow them, there really is no way around that.
As to divine intervention, it seems to me preposterous to argue that God cannot know the outcome of His intervention. Intervention may change the causal path, it no doubt does. But then a new causal sequence emerges, and this sequence, again is not beyond the knowledge of God.
I would appreciate it if any of the OV brethren could address these points without resorting to "free will," which is simply not relevant to the argument. In the alternative, please specify how you think free will choices come about.
He had quoted the wrong portion of your post, but he fixed it. His question was meant to be a continuation of the your thought (that he is now correctly quoting), so like you he is asking Freak his question.Clete said:Are you asking me this or Freak?
My answer is clearly, "NO! It does not."
Resting in Him,
Clete
It is not a problem for the OV in any case but the fact that there is more than one prophecy that God gave in the Bible that did not come to pass. This is not possible to account for if the future is closed.docrob57 said:
Call it what you will, one way or the other there must be something more going on that simply causalities or else the freedom to choose does not exist. Which, if so, removes our ability to love, or to do anything moral at all.
If events are simply the result of a causal chain then indeed, regardless of how complex they are, God could and would exhaustively know the future. No one here (that I know of) attempts to put such a limitation on God.
Like I said before, I don't know really what is happening exactly when it comes to our free will. I do not know whether they are caused or if they are not but whether they are or not, they cannot be SIMPLY the result of a causal chain and morality remain a meaningful concept. No one has suggested that nothing we do has a cause, only that causal chains are not the only thing going on which influences our action.
Agreed. Again, assuming that causalities are all this is going on, which I do not beleive. I think that your next sentence indicates that perhaps you also see that there must be more to it as well (if not consciously, perhaps only intuitively).
Separated from the rest of your comments, perhaps it is easier to see the conflict in your thought process here. Intervention is itself caused by something, right? And so even the intervention is part of the original causal chain and no real intervention has taken place. The causal chain of events is completely in tact, it just looks like it has been interupted by divine intervention. The only way that this might not be the case is if God is not subject to causality. And if He is not subject to causality and we are made in His image, why do you insist that we must be?
I do not see how free will is not relevant. It seems central to the issue at hand. If causality is the only driving force of all the events of the universe including every "choice" I make, then free will definately does not exist and all things such as right and wrong go right out the window.
How am I wrong?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete said:
I know it is buried somewhere in the previous discussion, but if you could give a few examples of prophecies that did not come to pass I would appreciate it.
There are 2 main places that I think you are wrong. First, why can't morality function as a causal factor? There is simply no reason to believe that moral action is uncaused. Secondly, and you are not "wrong" here but have failed to address it, how can free will actions be uncaused? If uncaused, then they are in some sense random, (caused vs. random is the real dichotomy, not caused vs. free will) and this is hard to believe for me.
docrob, Clete's main point was this:
Are God's actions merely the result of the grand causal chain?
If I make a choice to intervene in some situation, you believe I could not do otherwise because my apparent choice was the absolutely certain result of set causes. When God intervenes, you said that He is changing the course of the "causal path." But does God really changing the "causal path," or was His intervention part of that set causal path all along?
In other words, does God have free will?
Are God's actions merely the result of the grand causal chain?
If I make a choice to intervene in some situation, you believe I could not do otherwise because my apparent choice was the absolutely certain result of set causes. When God intervenes, you said that He is changing the course of the "causal path." But does God really changing the "causal path," or was His intervention part of that set causal path all along?
In other words, does God have free will?
Free will is self-evident.
What causes God to think, act, and feel? These are self-determining things inherent in the nature of personal beings (we are in the image of God).
The will itself, working with the mind, is the cause of actions. There is nothing back of the will needed to explain how we can think and act. We cannot dissect and hyper-analyze this. God is the First Cause. He has a will. Our creative choices, with our will and intellect, also bring new realities into existence.
What causes God to think, act, and feel? These are self-determining things inherent in the nature of personal beings (we are in the image of God).
The will itself, working with the mind, is the cause of actions. There is nothing back of the will needed to explain how we can think and act. We cannot dissect and hyper-analyze this. God is the First Cause. He has a will. Our creative choices, with our will and intellect, also bring new realities into existence.
Well there are several but my favorite is...docrob57 said:
Joshua 3:10
And Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
And Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
God never did this because Israel did evil in God's sight. (Jer.18)
I didn't say it was uncaused, only that choices must be real for morlity to have any meaning. If our action (or inaction) is ONLY the result of a causal chain of events then there is no choice involved at all and the morality of the action loses all meaning because love and all other acts of a moral nature MUST be volitional by definition.
Again, I am not saying that they are uncaused. I'm simply saying that there must be something more than simply causailities involved with our will. I'm saying that something supernatural (something spiritual) is involved in our will and so chaos theory cannot apply nor any other natural phonomina having to do with causality. Those things do influence our will but it simply cannot be that they determine our action completely. The very definition of what it means to love God is detroyed otherwise.
Resting in Him,
Clete
logos_x
New member
Clete said:
The prophecy was meant to change the outcome, Clete. If God didn't want a change of course for you, He would NOT tell you.
Note that, in your scenario...God didn't say that He was going to cause the accident, cause them to get into the car, or cause the legs to be broken.
Your error is that you seem to think God's knowledge causes the future exclusively, and ours doesn't or cannot change it.
logos_x said:
Knowledge is not causative. God's will and our wills (free moral agents) turns the potential future into the actual, fixed past through present choices. Until the choices are made, they are not a certain/actual object of knowledge, even for an omniscient being. They are merely probable or possible choices. They are not actual/certain until after the fact. Then they are objects of certain knowledge.
No you don't understand my position.logos_x said:
I am not saying that God's knowledge CAUSES the action but that it cements those actions in place. If God knows what will happen then that is what will happen or else God does not know it. Talking about what God EXPECTS to happen is not the same as discussing what He KNOWS will happen, they are two different concepts. One preserves freedom and thereby the meaning of morality, the other does not.
Resting in Him,
Clete
logos_x said:
God would tell you this based on perfect present knowledge of an INTENTION of someone to murder. The act is not actual/certain yet. It is merely possible and probable. Since it is not the fixed past yet, calling the police to arrest the person or warning the future victim would alter the future.
This analogy is not relevant to the nature of exhaustive foreknowledge vs free will choices.
godrulz said:
Neither free will, self determination or supernatural intervention are counterarguments to anything I was talking about. For those raising supernatural intervention, it would appear that they are placed in the uneasy position of arguing that God cannot know the outcome of His intervention.
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