A potential Atheist thrown into the mix

[hawsman2]

(I'm pretty long winded so if you want a spiel, keep reading, or if you like short, skip on down)

Over the past couple of years, since I left high school, I've been battling my views on religion and Christianity. Just found this place and I'm kind of interested if this is the forum to express my views and questions in. I was raised in a relaxed-catholic home (went to church at Easter and the such), but I was sent to a catholic school. Learned all the bible stories, went to bi-weekly mass, took religion courses, etc...

I was drawn to the religion courses because of the interesting and intelligent teachers that taught the religion class, but the actual studies left me jaded. I had a pretty alright relationship with God and wasn't devote by any means, but considered myself a Christian.

But everyday I'd go to religion class, I'd learn of all the tragedies and atrocities every religion has committed. Historically, I've still seen extremely little good it's brought the world and its politics. Every sides had its troubles, but I just chocked it up as man's fault and not God's (to begin with of course). But it caused me to question a lot of the decisions the church has made, which made me question the logic it was made upon, and the the reasons that logic presented, then the ideals in which gave birth to the logic.

Long story short, I became a questioner, and I'm realizing not only does religion not have any good answers, but the answers it has are truly bad ones.

But that is something I kind of want to change. With all of these questions I have, and only hearing dumb or horrible answers, I'm getting angry with everyone. Quick to start arguments, unhappy with life, and all around pissed off at people. I'm smart enough to see no coincidences.

So in case you guys were all tl/dr, simply put, I'm a pissed off ex-catholic turned atheist. But the title "atheist" has a silver lining. While I do consider myself off the fence and drifting away from the idea of any God, I've always kept that fence in eye sight, ready to jump back onto it or over it again in case someone changes it.

And so I'm here to say hello, and to not take too much offense to my questions (unless of course I mean to offend. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions).

 

[Town Heretic]

(I'm pretty long winded so if you want a spiel, keep reading, or if you like short, skip on down)

Over the past couple of years, since I left high school...

First things first. Your judgment centers won't be functioning well until your early to mid twenties. This is simply a biological fact and no personal failing of your own. It should, however, be part of the reason you refrain from making serious, life altering judgments of this sort...along with the fact that at your age your life perspective is remarkably limited.

... I had a pretty alright relationship with God and wasn't devote by any means, but considered myself a Christian.

No offense meant, but if you're at the Atheist doorway, all evidence to the contrary. You can't sort of love a girl or mostly follow God. You either do or you don't. Half measures end in failure one hundred percent of the time.

But everyday I'd go to religion class, I'd learn of all the tragedies and atrocities every religion has committed.

Which would go to what men do with anything if unrestrained by other men of good conscience. Else, how to explain the godless Eutopia of Stalin's purges or Pol Pots killing fields, to say nothing of Mao (and let's not).

Historically, I've still seen extremely little good it's brought the world and its politics.

Then your teachers weren't as skilled as you let on. Christianity has shaped the foundation of Western civilization. That would be the civilization that set you in your current ease and consideration.

But it caused me to question a lot of the decisions the church has made,

Questioning the works of man is a good and reasonable thing.

which made me question the logic it was made upon, and the the reasons that logic presented, then the ideals in which gave birth to the logic.

Entertaining doubt is no great intellectual exercise and while belief and God are logically defensible, the foundation of Christianity isn't reason, it's faith in the person and teachings of Jesus Christ, echoed in the personal experience open to those who seek it and him without reservation. God isn't interested in proving anything to you. He's interested in improving you.

Long story short, I became a questioner, and I'm realizing not only does religion not have any good answers, but the answers it has are truly bad ones.

I think you mean to be reasonable. Then think of the genius of Aquinas and Merton and Lewis and...I could go on with this for some time...and at least understand that these men were learned and studied and that they didn't find what your young noggin currently suspects reasonable. So if you're wondering, read them. See what it was that transformed Lewis from a sharp witted rationalist/heathen to a great apologist. Find what sent Merton into a different intellectual life from the one he'd set course to explore.

So in case you guys were all tl/dr, simply put, I'm a pissed off ex-catholic turned atheist. But the title "atheist" has a silver lining. While I do consider myself off the fence and drifting away from the idea of any God, I've always kept that fence in eye sight, ready to jump back onto it or over it again in case someone changes it.

You'll have to set out your doubts in particular to have particular answers offered, but I think it's safe to say you've found a good place for that.

And so I'm here to say hello, and to not take too much offense to my questions (unless of course I mean to offend. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions).

And hello to you. :e4e:

 

[Harvett]

Giday hawsman2. I will start with a question for you. What do you think of the story of Christianity. Not church history or theology, but just the simple story. I think that is a good place to start.

 

[allsmiles]

(I'm pretty long winded so if you want a spiel, keep reading, or if you like short, skip on down)

Over the past couple of years, since I left high school, I've been battling my views on religion and Christianity. Just found this place and I'm kind of interested if this is the forum to express my views and questions in. I was raised in a relaxed-catholic home (went to church at Easter and the such), but I was sent to a catholic school. Learned all the bible stories, went to bi-weekly mass, took religion courses, etc...

I was drawn to the religion courses because of the interesting and intelligent teachers that taught the religion class, but the actual studies left me jaded. I had a pretty alright relationship with God and wasn't devote by any means, but considered myself a Christian.

But everyday I'd go to religion class, I'd learn of all the tragedies and atrocities every religion has committed. Historically, I've still seen extremely little good it's brought the world and its politics. Every sides had its troubles, but I just chocked it up as man's fault and not God's (to begin with of course). But it caused me to question a lot of the decisions the church has made, which made me question the logic it was made upon, and the the reasons that logic presented, then the ideals in which gave birth to the logic.

Long story short, I became a questioner, and I'm realizing not only does religion not have any good answers, but the answers it has are truly bad ones.

But that is something I kind of want to change. With all of these questions I have, and only hearing dumb or horrible answers, I'm getting angry with everyone. Quick to start arguments, unhappy with life, and all around pissed off at people. I'm smart enough to see no coincidences.

So in case you guys were all tl/dr, simply put, I'm a pissed off ex-catholic turned atheist. But the title "atheist" has a silver lining. While I do consider myself off the fence and drifting away from the idea of any God, I've always kept that fence in eye sight, ready to jump back onto it or over it again in case someone changes it.

And so I'm here to say hello, and to not take too much offense to my questions (unless of course I mean to offend. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions).

Good to meet you. I'm always happy to make the acquaintence of a fellow atheist.

I think you'll find as you continue researching atheism and religion that there are many more tools available to you than simply an historical argument based on the atrocities wrought in the name of any god.

Literary analysis, archaeology and an understanding of the cultures and eras in which "holy" books were written will help you in invalidating specific deities. And there are any number of wonderful scientific, philosophical and logical arguments for dismantling the broader argument of any creator god.

My favorite facet of religious criticism is the textual analysis of their tomes. But I also love archaeology and cultural anthropology. Over the past six years (since my deconversion from Christianity) I've done quite a bit of reading and research and would be happy to try and answer any questions you may have.

Now that you're an atheist you're in a unique position to actually take advantage of your intellectual freedom rather than stifle it and see all through the narrow, primitive prism of religious faith. Congrats, good luck and let me know if I can help you with anything.

 

[Quincy]

Long story short, I became a questioner, and I'm realizing not only does religion not have any good answers, but the answers it has are truly bad ones.

That is the best thing anyone can do, is to question. Question everything, including yourself. Your own preconceived notions are more often than not your worst enemies. Oh, question society too! The collective is marching towards the bridge.....

 

[Memento Mori]

That is the best thing anyone can do, is to question. Question everything, including yourself. Your own preconceived notions are more often than not your worst enemies. Oh, question society too! The collective is marching towards the bridge.....

Hmmm... I don't know. That sounds a little far fetched to me... :chuckle:

And welcome, hawsman2

 

[Quincy]

Hmmm... I don't know. That sounds a little far fetched to me... :chuckle:

And welcome, hawsman2

Maybe :chuckle: , but I think we can all be wrong at times. I figure it's best I catch myself before someone else does.......




Doesn't always work though. Unless you mean about the collective.... *slowly tip toes away* (nice Link avatar, btw)

 

[ChrisGergen]

Welcome. And good luck. Question everything, but know this. Ask better questions to insure better answers. Some here ponder questions not worth asking. Again, if you want better answers - ask better questions and be open to Christians, Atheists and Agnostics (and everyone else) alike. But ask all these groups better questions.

Iron does sharpen iron.

Again, welcome...

 

[Memento Mori]

Maybe :chuckle: , but I think we can all be wrong at times. I figure it's best I catch myself before someone else does.......

You look a lot less foolish when you do (at least to us).

Doesn't always work though. Unless you mean about the collective.... *slowly tip toes away* (nice Link avatar, btw)

... (thanks)

 

[Nineveh]

... raised in a relaxed-catholic home (went to church at Easter and the such), but I was sent to a catholic school. Learned all the bible stories, went to bi-weekly mass, took religion courses, etc...I was drawn to the religion courses because of the interesting and intelligent teachers that taught the religion class, ...

Have you ever just sat down and read the Bible through?

... I became a questioner, and I'm realizing not only does religion not have any good answers, but the answers it has are truly bad ones. ...

Well... As you have stated, you've found TOL Perhaps you might hear something you haven't heard before.

...I'm getting angry with everyone. Quick to start arguments, unhappy with life, and all around pissed off at people. I'm smart enough to see no coincidences.

Speaking from experience, that's a bad way to be Should you suffer advice from a stranger, start with he Bible and let God speak for Himself. It cuts a lot of clutter when you come to the place of asking the questions that haven't already been answered.

And so I'm here to say hello, ...

Welcome to TOL

 

[always_learning]

Welcome! Stick around, ask questions, and remember not to allow bad experiences with individuals to affect your quest for truth.

 

[ChrisGergen]

Welcome! Stick around, ask questions, and remember not to allow bad experiences with individuals to affect your quest for truth.

That's great advise!!

 

[bornslacker]

I'm new here too, and I was once where you are. Keep digging for those answers. Be sure to get a good mix from both sides though.

 

[blah]

First things first. Your judgment centers won't be functioning well until your early to mid twenties. This is simply a biological fact and no personal failing of your own. It should, however, be part of the reason you refrain from making serious, life altering judgments of this sort...along with the fact that at your age your life perspective is remarkably limited.

Good point. Perhaps people should only be introduced to religion and theology after their twenty-first birthday so as to prevent them making any decisions that may be skewed by their improper brain function and limited life experience.

 

[bornslacker]

Good point. Perhaps people should only be introduced to religion and theology after their twenty-first birthday so as to prevent them making any decisions that may be skewed by their improper brain function and limited life experience.

Second that!

I'm all for learning about religion. As in, they can teach the bible as well as other religious stories, AND atheism.

However... telling them what to believe, that's indoctrination. I think that's messed up.

 

[always_learning]

Second that!

I'm all for learning about religion. As in, they can teach the bible as well as other religious stories, AND atheism.

However... telling them what to believe, that's indoctrination. I think that's messed up.

I agree; your parents shouldn't have mentioned anything about the dangers of playing in the street! Learning by experience is a much better way to learn about your environment.


:think:

 

[Town Heretic]

Good point. Perhaps people should only be introduced to religion and theology after their twenty-first birthday so as to prevent them making any decisions that may be skewed by their improper brain function and limited life experience.

Then you come up against two difficulties: the lack of a moral vacuum and the consequence of driving without seat belts, after an analogous fashion. If a person rejects God he or she may face serious consequences balanced against a momentary inconvenience on the restrained side of it and only then in the most hedonistic manner imaginable. And yes, it is something of a PW.

 

[blah]

Then you come up against two difficulties: the lack of a moral vacuum and the consequence of driving without seat belts, after an analogous fashion. If a person rejects God he or she may face serious consequences balanced against a momentary inconvenience on the restrained side of it and only then in the most hedonistic manner imaginable. And yes, it is something of a PW.

I don't see either of those points as being difficulties.
I think most people will agree that morals exist in some form or another although there will no doubt be differences of opinion regarding where they come from. What we can say is that morality does not follow directly from an individual's belief in one particular god. There are moral people within all faiths just as there are people who behave in immoral ways in all faiths. So regardless of whether morality comes from a god, emerges from biology or is constructed by society the lack of a particular faith does not exclude an individual from conducting themselves in a moral fashion.

You claim that 'serious consequences' lie ahead for any who reject god. I'm not asking for people to reject god, I'm asking that they not be exposed to teachings about god in any way shape or form until after their brain has developed to the point where they can make sound judgements. If they are not taught about god then how can they reject him? And after their brain has fully matured they can then be introduced to whichever religion is appropriate, warned of the dire consequences of not believing and allowed to make their own judgement on the matter.

I'm sure you'll forgive me for not being able to quote scripture but is there not a passage granting a get-out-of-jail-free card to anyone who has not been introduced to the gospel? Something about being judged by their own standards?

 

[Town Heretic]

I don't see either of those points as being difficulties.

I think most people will agree that morals exist in some form or another although there will no doubt be differences of opinion regarding where they come from.

Distinguish morals from preference in that context.

What we can say is that morality does not follow directly from an individual's belief in one particular god.

You can also say that milk chocolate should be considered a food group. Same thing, really.

There are moral people within all faiths just as there are people who behave in immoral ways in all faiths.

By what standard? Sorry, but you simply can't take a relativist stance and arrive at a moral conclusion that is meaningful and if you don't have as the root of moral judgment an absolute then you must, rationally, take a relativistic stance.

So regardless of whether morality comes from a god, emerges from biology or is constructed by society the lack of a particular faith does not exclude an individual from conducting themselves in a moral fashion.

We differ, except one reduce morality to simply following the law set out by social compact through agreement or fiat.

You claim that 'serious consequences' lie ahead for any who reject god.

I was a little less adamant than that for this hypothetical, but the possibility of serious consequences at the very least.

I'm not asking for people to reject god, I'm asking that they not be exposed to teachings about god in any way shape or form until after their brain has developed to the point where they can make sound judgements.

I can understand the argument, but I think we should distinguish between an impaired judgment and one insufficient to the task with considered effort and counsel. My earlier point to hay involved the unstated (but well known to the aged) principle that the young will follow the path of least resistance as frequently as not and that this path more frequently leads to STDs, unwanted pregnancies and poor choices in automobile related behavior, etc. By that light the young are more likely to choose the irreligious with its unrestricted appetite, though not for reasons having much to do with sustained and serious reflection...another point I touched upon and you echoed was life experience, but to that I'd add time for serious and wide exposure to the underlying principles and stated truths of religious life. None of those are likely to be found in significant quantities among the young.

But you cannot say remove yourself from moral consideration in the meantime or you have said make the choice while pretending not to until a later date. And so we're back to which choice makes the better, safer and more reasonable choice for those lacking in the necessary elements of sound judgment.

I'm sure you'll forgive me for not being able to quote scripture but is there not a passage granting a get-out-of-jail-free card to anyone who has not been introduced to the gospel? Something about being judged by their own standards?

Company calling. I'll return to this last later. Remind me if I don't, will you? :e4e:

 

[Rusha]

I agree; your parents shouldn't have mentioned anything about the dangers of playing in the street! Learning by experience is a much better way to learn about your environment.

:think:

Not even close to the same thing ...