A Peculiar Kind of Gospel
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This is true of physical birth. The brotherhood of man exists because God is the Creator. Only those who receive Christ are born or adopted as children of God (Jn. 1:12). The marriage analogy relates to principles of relationship and is limited. Your analogy would assume that spiritual birth is the same as physical birth, which it is not in every respect. There is more than one imagery for salvation (you seem to reduce it to having Christ's life...this is true, but other truths are also revealed....adoption, redemption, reconciliation, etc.).
Can we agree to disagree? Why would you waste your time on me?
For the record, I think it is vital to love God supremely and others equal to ourselves. This is how Jesus summarized the law of God (great commandment; great commission). This is not self-righteousness or a work. It is a heart response to the fact that God first loved us and died for us. He has shed His love abroad in our hearts. The antithesis is to live in selfish rebellion. Either He is #1 or we attempt to be #1. "Your gonna have to serve somebody. It may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody." (Joshua and Bob Dylan)
I love Jesus Christ and trust His finished work. Why can't we be friends, oh why can't we be friends? Actually, we are more than friends; we are brothers:ha:
For the record, I think it is vital to love God supremely and others equal to ourselves. This is how Jesus summarized the law of God (great commandment; great commission). This is not self-righteousness or a work. It is a heart response to the fact that God first loved us and died for us. He has shed His love abroad in our hearts. The antithesis is to live in selfish rebellion. Either He is #1 or we attempt to be #1. "Your gonna have to serve somebody. It may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody." (Joshua and Bob Dylan)
I love Jesus Christ and trust His finished work. Why can't we be friends, oh why can't we be friends? Actually, we are more than friends; we are brothers:ha:
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Sozo
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No. I can't agree to disagree with anyone. To do so, would be to hate that person.
Because I don't hate you.
I agree with that! :thumb:
True!
Agreed! We cannot love others unless we have the love of God.
Yep!
Verse please? How is that possible?
No, He is always # 1; What we do cannot change that.
Well, that appears to be the thing that you keep proclaiming and denying at the same time. You cannot say that you trust His finished work, and then turn around and claim that there is work for you to do to maintain a relationship with Him.
LightSon
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I am not sure this is true. God ordains governements according to Romans 13. He also calls for us to obey duly appointed authorities. I am obliged to keep the civil law. For me to willfully break the law is a sin. I can't speak for you, because I know you would not agree with that, so when you break the law it is what? A bad choice? Is it immoral? Is it wrong in God's eye's? I don't know what you would say. I guess you'll have to tell me.
My point is in regards to those laws which do not go against God's word. So getting back to documents that God did not draft, my sense is that He would hold me accountable to those documents, again, as long as the documents and my abiding by them does not violate what He has said or His nature. By holding me accountable, God is, in effect, recognizing them.
God is ordered. God ordains chains of authority at a spirtual level, within human governement to include the family. He sets up kings and takes them down. As a husband, I am an authority in my home. I am the law in my home. My wife and my kids are obliged to obey (recognize) my laws. If my wife makes a law for the kids while I'm away, do you suppose that I will recogonize the laws she has made in my absense? The answer is yes. I will definitely recogonize her laws and hold my kids accountable thereto, provided her law doesn't violate God's law or my own. I think God will likewise recognize laws (i.e. legal documents) that He did not draft.
If one does not live supremely for God, they live supremely for Self. This is the state of the unregenerate. Any verse that talks about walking in darkness, flesh, sin, etc. supports the idea of selfish rebellion when one does not know Christ (Rom. 1-3= condemnation of man).
God is enthroned as #1 in the universe. We cannot add to or take away from His sovereignty. There seems to be a throne in our heart where we can receive or reject Him. This is self-evident unless you are a TULIP Calvinist. The Gospel of John contrasts light/darkness, belief/unbelief, life/death, etc. These dualisms shows that Christ is the Great Divider. We are either for Him or against Him.
If faith and love are not works, then to begin our relationship with Christ by faith and love, and to continue in that relationship by faith and love, is not a work that we do. The Spirit works in and through us, but not coercively and totally independent of our will, intellect, emotions (personal, moral, spiritual image of God). It is possible to fully trust Christ's finished work and become born again. Discipleship, growth, maturity involve the Spirit's work and our obedience (do a word study on uses of obedience in the NT). The Bible talks about abiding, persevering, continuing in the faith. Calvinists would say we perservere no matter what and that grace is irresistible. This is not biblical. Free will theists recognize that we are in the image of God and volition is genuine. I recognize the Spirit's saving and keeping power, but this does not mean that praying, obeying, loving, trusting (active vs passive), etc. should lead one to conclude that it is works or man salvation/sanctification. It would be wrong for me to minimize your understanding of salvation being of God, as it is wrong for you to maximize the role/responsibility we have in response to God's mighty work in those who believe. Faith involves will and intellect. It is not something done to us.
Sozo is correct about the government issue. Light went off on a tangent out of context to the original statement. My question is whether the analogy is applicable to salvation. If being born again is a physical thing, then it has merit. However, if it is a spiritual birth, which it is, then the literal, physical analogy will not be identical in every sense (we do not come out of a uterus when we are born from above, etc.).
LightSon
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Wow. That was a mouthful.
I don't know why I'm responding to this, except that it is 4am and I can't sleep.
My understanding of the scriptures is as follows: I know few will agree in entirety.
I believe this. Scripture repeated calls us to obey out of volition.
I honestly don't know how to approach this. My first sense is to agree, but what about this verse? "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Heb 3:12
Who is to blame if this happens? As much as I don't like it, the verse is addressed to "brethren".
I'm going to let this issue simmer in my thoughts for awhile.
I believe that God will present me before His throne faultless. I believe that in myself I have no righteousness. I believe that in God's eternal view, I am righteous.
Where I differ with many of you, is that there is a day-to-day practical aspect to the outworking of the righteousness of Christ in me. I am volitionally called on by God to do certain things, thereby allowing Christ's life to be lived through me. "The life which I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God..." That is volitional. I could list verse after verse which similarly call for obedience. Again, that is volitional. To the extent that I thwart God's Spirit, I am not allowing Christ's righteousness to be lived out through me.
Yes. God changes our desires, but not overnight. There is a process by which He does this, and while it is true that God "works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure," we still have responsibility to participate. I know some won't like that, but as I've said scripture repeated calls on us to do submit ourselves.
I'm a OSAS guy, so I make a distinction between "leaving God" in terms of salvation and "leaving God" in terms of heart surrender. I already quoted Hebrews 3:12, which refers to "departing from the living God." As a Christian, I have "left God" iin the sense of ignoring Him or behaving like He didn't exist. Such behavior reflects an "evil heart of unbelief".' Does this mean I loose my salvation? No. I do not think so. I cannot disinherit myself. I cannot be anything but His son. Yet, my faith is not perfected, not until I see Him face to face. I often find myself showing bad faith, and for this I am ashamed.
Regarding the rest of your musings, I generally agree. My faith cannot ultimately die, which is to say, there remains a basic salvific faith that Christ will not let die. Yet practically, every action I take is a function of my faith. When I act faithlessly, then this bespeaks a weak faith. I trust that God is growing my faith, this despite some of my most obdurate efforts to thwart Him.
Sozo
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That is correct, they are not saved. The unregenerate cannot live for God, and the regenerate cannot live for self. Both are impossible.
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me."
Salvation is the end of self, and the life of Christ.
Exactly! It is impossible for a child of God to walk in darkness, in the flesh, or in sin.
And once God takes the throne, He does not leave it, even if asked.
No argument there.
Acts 26:18
"...to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me."
Eph 5:8
"...for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light"
1 Thes 5:4-5
"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;"
Col 1:13-14
"For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
1 Peter 2:9
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;"
2 Cor 6:14
"Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?"
"As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him"
You need to expound on this statement. What exactly do you think the Spirit's role is in us that is independent of us?
That is a strange statement. How can one not be born again who has trusted in Christ's finished work? The one's who may not be born again are those who claim that Christ's work was finished but then proceed to finish it for Him.
:chuckle: That's funny... you telling me to do a word study :crackup:
What are the repercussions (according to you), if someone does not obey in the flesh the "work" of the Spirit? Define your view of maturity, growth, discipleship.
Yes it does...
"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
I don't give a rip what Calvinists, Arminians, Molinists, Open Theists, Dispensationalists, etc; etc, say! I only care what God says.
"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
Oh? I think it is.
But you have made it as such. You have made the post acceptance of the gospel for salvation conditional. You have made the the responsibility of man to remain faithful and maintain his salvation. That is works, no matter how you try to dress it up otherwise.
That, my dear godrulz, is why you have a false belief about the gospel.
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
"...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
Sozo
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LightSon, my dear friend, are you sure you understand why the letter was written to Hebrews?
As you may know, I am not an Open Theist, so don't expect me to give you the "not written to the church" argument here. However, did the Jews have a history with God, before Christ? Had they heard His voice? Had the Holy Spirit been active in preserving and protecting them as a nation? Had God worked miracles among them? Don't you think that the writer of Hebrews is trying to tell them that Jesus is the continuation of God's plan, and that if they want to go where God is leading them, it must be through Christ and Christ alone?
"And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief."
Mid-Acts dispensationalism would say Hebrews was not written to the Church (uncircumcision). Enyart's "The Plot" supports this. He has elements of Open Theism, but it not a classical Open Theist in every sense. So, the Hebrew issue is a dispensational one, not to be confused with Open Theism that relates more to the nature of the future.
Seems we agree on many things. This verse balances God working in us AND us walking in them. The love of Christ compels me to share the Gospel, worship Him, feed the poor, give to missions, etc. He works in me, but it is still my body, lips, paycheck, hands, etc. I am not a sock puppet. This is why I am responsible/accountable/praiseworthy/blameworthy. This applies to good works, but is not that different from moral choices. As a believer, lighthouse or any of us looked at porn at one point, but not later in his walk. If God was so in control, and I am literally dead, the Spirit would not have moved my eyes and hands to look at porn. This is self-evident and consistent with Paul's exhortations to recognize the Spirit's work in our lives and our responsibility to not yield our members to temptation. It is both God and us, not either God or us. If I can type this note, I can also commit adultery, whether I am a believer or unbeliever. There has to be some relation between how the Spirit works (is it coercive/causative? no) and our own wills and desires (which should be those of Christ, but in reality are not always...I can buy a Corvette instead of giving money to feed the poor at God's urging).
Few dispute that there is an interaction between God and man in history, prayer, salvation, growth, etc. This does not rob God of glory, but shows that he valued and risked other free moral agents and did not always have to have things his own way. Hebrews warns us that God disciplines those whom He loves showing that we can disobey. I get the feeling that you think believers are perfect and obey and are righteous in every thought, word, deed, motive, etc. from the minute they say: "Have mercy on me, because I am a sinner." Are you sure Scripture and reality supports that kind of world view? God sees reality as it is, so it does not make sense to say that what the devil and man sees as sin, God sees as holiness. Adultery and murder are sins whether committed by a believer or an unbeliever.
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