A Peculiar Kind of Gospel

[Zakath]

Originally posted by lighthouse

If I shut off my brain when I thought of religion, then I would still think Sozo was an idiot, and a heretic.

Your belief does not change the observable behaviors that qualify Sozo as an idiot from my perspective.

As to whether he's a heretic, that is an internal matter for you religionists to debate.

And you are the one who doesn't give any credence to any religion, or theology. You won't even study any, or seek to find out if any are true.

Your pompous hubris is exceeded only by your ignorance.

If I recall your age correctly, I have been studying religion since decades before you were born...

I don't give credence to religion and theology precisely because I studied it for much of my adult life and found it to be generally a waste of time for me.

So you have proven yourself to be a hypocrite, by accusing me of what it is that you do. There's a plank in your eye.

I see you have learned your master, Sozo's, lessons well ... when you have nothing substantive to present, resort to personal insults. It's fascinating to watch your "discipleship" progress... :chuckle:

 

[godrulz]

The cool thing is that the simplest, uneducated Christian (not lighthouse) has more truth and wisdom than the great philosphers and scholars of the ages who reject the Gospel. Understanding of spiritual revelation answers the great questions about life, death, origins, and eternity. The academic world that processes bits of facts about science, history, math, etc. has temporal knowledge without wisdom and eternal truth. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but is the power of God to those who believe.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

The cool thing is that the simplest, uneducated Christian (not lighthouse) has more truth and wisdom than the great philosphers and scholars of the ages who reject the Gospel.

Thank you!

So why don't you believe me when I preach to you the message of the righteousness of God through the cross?

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Oh... I see.

How very sad for you.

 

[godrulz]

The Wesleyan, Arminian, Edwardian, Pentecostal, etc. views of sanctification are all consistent with justification by grace through faith in Christ alone. They all emphasize the work and person of Christ and the Spirit. One is more biblical, but the fact that there are different reasonable views shows that Scripture is not an explicit systematic theology text. Differing views between great Christians and seminaries of the the past and present do not mean that millions of godly people are not Christians because they disagree with fine nuances of theology.

To say that your particular articulations are the true Gospel and everyone else is wrong is sectish or cultish.

Likewise, the Commercial Transaction Theory/Federal Headship of Adam/literal payment (probably your view) views on the atonement are as consistent with evangelical, Protestant, Reformed (justification by grace through faith alone in Christ and His finished work) as the governmental theory of the atonement.

I am willing to suggest that you do not understand other views well enough to realize this. To hide your ignorance, it is easier to consign to hell all those who do not use the same phraseology as you. I have no problem seeing you as a believer, because I know we believe essentially the same things on justification and sanctification. I disagree (along with hundreds of millions of other godly believers) on your conclusions about OSAS. If you think that this is a salvific doctrine (perseverance of the saints) then you only show your lack of understanding of the true Gospel and have added conditions of salvation that go beyond the revelation.

When you grow up and realize that believers have a diversity of understanding on areas of theology and that you may not be right on every detail, then I will be interested in your opinion (I am not clear on your answer about eschatology, spiritual gifts, Calvinism, etc.....how correct does our understanding have to be? Are we saved by profound theological insights or by faith in Christ and what He has done?).

Until then, you cannot even discern who is a true follower of Christ (moi) from one who opposes the faith (Zakath). You have lost your right to pontificate. If someone disagrees with you, they are a Christ-hater. Unreal.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by godrulz

...To say that your particular articulations are the true Gospel and everyone else is wrong is sectish or cultish.

...To hide your ignorance, it is easier to consign to hell...

...If you think...then you only show your lack of understanding of the true Gospel...

When you grow up and realize...

...you cannot even discern who is a true follower of Christ (moi)...

Would it be fair to say that you believe when someone smites you that it is better to marginalize that person, imply his views are cultish, call him ignorant, accuse him of consigning people to hell, suggest he lacks understanding of the "true Gospel", and imply he is a child, rather than turn the other cheek?

Open rebuke is one thing, but subtle slander and libel are not acceptable. You have been cleansed from such things, godrulz; therefore, you should refrain from doing those things, knowing fully that God will destroy those who slander another. I am going to do my best to refrain from such conduct from now on, as the holy spirit has convinced me that their is NO profit in it.

I was happy to read no such comments from you towards me in you last posts on this thread. On that basis, we can communicate, and maybe learn things from each other.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo
...So why don't you believe me when I preach to you the message of the righteousness of God through the cross?

Perhaps because, while you are "simple" and perhaps "uneducated", your message of condemnation and "revenge" against the unbelieving infidels is repugnant to many people.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

Perhaps because, while you are "simple" and perhaps "uneducated", your message of condemnation and "revenge" against the unbelieving infidels is repugnant to many people.

Being as complicated and scholarly as you are, Zakath, why do you run and hide or lie about your health, everytime you are challenged to defend your world view?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

The Wesleyan, Arminian, Edwardian, Pentecostal, etc. views of sanctification are all consistent with justification by grace through faith in Christ alone. They all emphasize the work and person of Christ and the Spirit. One is more biblical, but the fact that there are different reasonable views shows that Scripture is not an explicit systematic theology text. Differing views between great Christians and seminaries of the the past and present do not mean that millions of godly people are not Christians because they disagree with fine nuances of theology.

Maybe... but there is no question that you are not a believer.

To say that your particular articulations are the true Gospel and everyone else is wrong is sectish or cultish.

I wonder how Paul would respond to such a foolish statement as that. Just more evidence that because you don't know the gospel, you have to bring everyone else to your level of ignorance. How pathetic of you. :down:

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by godrulz

There are not 2 gospels...(there are 2 target audiences in the early church, not 2 different gospels after the resurrection).

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;"
-Galatians 2:7

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by godrulz

When you grow up and realize that believers have a diversity of understanding on areas of theology and that you may not be right on every detail, then I will be interested in your opinion (I am not clear on your answer about eschatology, spiritual gifts, Calvinism, etc.....how correct does our understanding have to be? Are we saved by profound theological insights or by faith in Christ and what He has done?).

We are saved by faith in Christ alone. But those who have no faith in what He has done, and would rather have faith in themselves and their ability to go what is right are wrong, and their faith is not in Christ. You appear to be one whose faith is in themselves. That is why Sozo says what he says. Take some time to commune with God, and inquire of Him the things that Sozo says. If God reveals to you what Sozo is actually saying, and that faith in Christ, apart form good works, is all it takes...and that those in Christ will not leave Christ, then you will know the truth, and your faith will no longer be in yourself. I hope, and pray, that you come to the truth.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Zakath

Perhaps because, while you are "simple" and perhaps "uneducated", your message of condemnation and "revenge" against the unbelieving infidels is repugnant to many people.

Do you understand that your signature line is repugnant to many people?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by elohiym

Do you understand that your signature line is repugnant to many people?

Do you understand that Zakath is repugnant to all maggots?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elohiym

Would it be fair to say that you believe when someone smites you that it is better to marginalize that person, imply his views are cultish, call him ignorant, accuse him of consigning people to hell, suggest he lacks understanding of the "true Gospel", and imply he is a child, rather than turn the other cheek?

Open rebuke is one thing, but subtle slander and libel are not acceptable. You have been cleansed from such things, godrulz; therefore, you should refrain from doing those things, knowing fully that God will destroy those who slander another. I am going to do my best to refrain from such conduct from now on, as the holy spirit has convinced me that their is NO profit in it.

I was happy to read no such comments from you towards me in you last posts on this thread. On that basis, we can communicate, and maybe learn things from each other.

Forgive me for stooping to sozo's level. The difference is that I do not call him a perverted Christ-hater because we differ on peripheral issues (we both affirm the essential biblical doctrines). I was suggesting that he is borderline sectish to think that he alone has all truth and insight. He has consigned people to hell for differing with him. This is not slander, but reporting the public facts. I did not say he lacks understanding of the true Gospel. He simply does not perceive that others who love and defend the same Gospel are in the truth because they do not accept OSAS, for example. I do not believe his views are cultish, but when he negates everyone else's faith, he is behaving similar to cults.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Maybe... but there is NO QUESTION that you are not a believer. I wonder how Paul would respond to such a foolish statement as that. Just more evidence that because you don't know the gospel, you have to bring everyone else to your level of ignorance. How pathetic of you. :down:

When did God make you Judge of the hearts and motives of humanity? Quit playing God!

I affirm the Deity and resurrection of Christ. I affirm salvation by grace through faith alone, apart from works or self-righteousness. I believe the Bible is the Word of God and my only authority. I believe in the triune God and sense His palpable presence. I have a Bachelor of Theology, have studied Hebrew and Greek, have pioneered a church and pastored for years, have been radically transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit 25 years ago, I speak in tongues, I have full assurance of my salvation, and have been affirmed by hundreds of godly leaders and believers as a man of faith, integrity, character, etc. even if they do not agree with my Open Theism, etc.

How pathetic of me? Shame on you! You judge from posts on the internet that you misrepresent. God judges in truth based on reality and the heart.

You are not God. Leave the judging and discernment to Him since you clearly lack wisdom.

BTW, you also are not Paul. You lack his wisdom, character, and authority. You also are not Jesus. We are to judge, but you better have the mind of Christ instead of your angry flesh.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lighthouse

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;"
-Galatians 2:7

The Plot's favorite proof text! Enyart errors to build a theology on one verse.

Galatians 2:7 ff. NIV (see Greek and commentaries)

"On the contrary, they saw that I had been given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles (uncircumcised), just as Peter had been given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Jews (circumcised)...apostle to the Jews...apostle to the Gentiles...God was at work..."

The context supports the idea that these great leaders primarily took the one and same Gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ to two different target groups.

This is similar to some people taking the Gospel to teens, doctors, Arabs, cultists, etc. There are not many Gospel messages after the resurrection, but there are different ministry emphasis and specialties/target groups (parachurch organizations, etc.).

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lighthouse

We are saved by faith in Christ alone. But those who have no faith in what He has done, and would rather have faith in themselves and their ability to go what is right are wrong, and their faith is not in Christ. You appear to be one whose faith is in themselves. That is why Sozo says what he says. Take some time to commune with God, and inquire of Him the things that Sozo says. If God reveals to you what Sozo is actually saying, and that faith in Christ, apart form good works, is all it takes...and that those in Christ will not leave Christ, then you will know the truth, and your faith will no longer be in yourself. I hope, and pray, that you come to the truth.

I affirm repeatedly that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. The relationship of man's will/role/responsibility in our Christian walk compared to the work of the Spirit are equal truths affirmed by Paul and others. Various views also wrestle with this tension (cf. God's sovereignty and man's free will). Affirming these biblical truths is what gets me labeled an unbeliever by yourself and sozo. I have little tolerance for such foolish arrogance. When I pray, I sense the Spirit being grieved by sozo calling His blood bought children Christ-hating perverts. He needs to publicly apologize for his public slander. Instead, he equates himself to Jesus and Paul in his wisdom and authority. I am disappointed that you blindly follow his deception.

 

[Lawless]

Quote: godrulz


Mid-Acts dispensationalism? Enyart? Hebrews was written to Hebrew CHRISTIANS, as opposed to those with Gentile background. There is only one type of Christ after the resurrection of Christ (neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, but one in Christ). Hebrews was written to a different target audience and group of churches (cf. Colossians was not directed at the Church in Phillipi, though the letters were applicable and often circulated; Corinthians dealt with problems in the Corinthian church, though the principles were applicable to all churches). There are not 2 gospels. There are believers from different backgrounds. Hebrews does resonate with those from a Jewish background. Its principles apply to all believers. Mid-Acts is controversial and an unlikely view (there are 2 target audiences in the early church, not 2 different gospels after the resurrection).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am not well versed in these labels used here on TOL ( Mid-Acts dispensationalism ), but if that is what corresponds to my comment, then that is fine. How do you Label yourself?

As to Pastor Enyart.... I have just finished reading the Debate " Does God exist". Very enjoyable for sure! I thought he did a remarkable job, what did you think?

I understand that Hebrews was written to Christians. They were Christians of faith and law, Paul preached faith only to the gentiles / Jews, anyone who would listen and believe. I agree with you " one Lord, one gospel " If the All of Scriptures were likened to a spear, the " Point" would be Jesus and the resurrection. I don't think it is rocket science, but a simple message of love. Yet, I have to admit we all do a good job of making it so complex with differant interpretations. At the same time, I'd like to say, I know I have much to learn myself, but I do know am "secure" in the Love of the Lord. But what of the finer details of the word? What was God's gospel given to Adam and Eve? What was the gospel given to all of man after the fall? What was the Gospel given to Noah? What was the gospel given to Abraham? What was the gospel given to Moses?....etc. Then " as prophesied " came Jesus. What was the gospel of Jesus? He preached faith and keep the " law "..... over and over again he spoke of the law, and his Kingdom. Then because of disbelief He cut off Isreal and grafted in the gentiles, or anyone who would believe. What was the gospel given to Paul? Behold a mystery " not prophesied " Faith only the law is dead! Crucified with Christ! So what do I make of this new mystery not prophesied? ....I once read a post were you said ..." A believer can sin and lose salvation and go back under the law "...(paraphrased) Wow! That's scary, and should be! The Law brings punishment and " FEAR ", are we to fear the loss of salvation? ...How powerful is God? How powerful is the Love of God? What is unconditional love? If I stumble and sin at what point does the sacrifice of the precious blood of Jesus end? O wretched man that I am what could "I" possibly do that changes the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ? A gift of love! Are we sealed in that love or not? I say yes! What greater love can I know? How much more motivating can love be versus following rules? Yes you can interpret scricptures to limit the love of jesus if you want, but here is one verse you should think on....." Perfect loves cast out all fear ". This is my interpretation and thoughts. If you think them "controversial" so be it.

I don't do well putting my thoughts to words, I hope I've done this justice.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

When did God make you Judge of the hearts and motives of humanity?

He hasn't, but He has made me a judge of false teachers.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves"

"Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

"Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision"

I have a command to publically oppose you, so that others will not be taken in by your schemes and distortions of the gospel.

"But what I am doing, I will continue to do, that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness"

I affirm the Deity and resurrection of Christ

Demons know that both those are true.

I affirm salvation by grace through faith alone, apart from works or self-righteousness.

Then you are either insane, suffering from Alzheimers, double-minded, or practing more of your deceptive practices, because you have consistently affirmed the contrary. YOU have "affirmed", over and over again, that Christians can make them(selves) unrighteous through a variety of acts. YOU are still putting righteousness into the hands of self and out of the hands of God. YOU are preaching and defending a gospel of self-righteousness!

I have a Bachelor of Theology

We are painfully aware of your constant Heinz 57 variety of "acceptable" gospels.

We are to judge, but you better have the mind of Christ instead of your angry flesh.

Jesus and Paul were never angry at false teachers?

BTW, you also are not Paul. You lack his wisdom,

Perhaps, but at least I know what he taught, and that he didn't make ignorant claims about 5 "acceptable" views on sactification.

character

I doubt that there is anyone at TOL who would not agree that I am in fact quite a character!

and authority

YOU don't have to accept what I teach, but I have ALL authority to proclaim it.

The relationship of man's will/role/responsibility in our Christian walk compared to the work of the Spirit are equal truths affirmed by Paul and others.

But it is primarily those "truths" which you pervert into another gospel message.


BOTTOM LINE godrulz... I have always, and am now willing to debate you on the issues, but you NEVER respond to those proof texts that expose your false ideas, and you ALWAYS revert back to your foolish statements that there are a plethera of acceptable "truths" within the pale of orthodoxy.

I will stop insulting you when you are willing to discuss these "truths" one by one, rather than your constant obfuscations into what other so-called theologians accept as truth. DEAL?

What is important, is what YOU believe!

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by godrulz

The Plot's favorite proof text! Enyart errors to build a theology on one verse.

Galatians 2:7 ff. NIV (see Greek and commentaries)

"On the contrary, they saw that I had been given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles (uncircumcised), just as Peter had been given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Jews (circumcised)...apostle to the Jews...apostle to the Gentiles...God was at work..."

The context supports the idea that these great leaders primarily took the one and same Gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ to two different target groups.

This is similar to some people taking the Gospel to teens, doctors, Arabs, cultists, etc. There are not many Gospel messages after the resurrection, but there are different ministry emphasis and specialties/target groups (parachurch organizations, etc.).

Young's Literal Translation

Galatians 2
7 but, on the contrary, having seen that I have been entrusted with the good news of the uncircumcision, as Peter with [that] of the circumcision,

Looks like the NIV fails again.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by godrulz

I affirm repeatedly that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. The relationship of man's will/role/responsibility in our Christian walk compared to the work of the Spirit are equal truths affirmed by Paul and others. Various views also wrestle with this tension (cf. God's sovereignty and man's free will). Affirming these biblical truths is what gets me labeled an unbeliever by yourself and sozo. I have little tolerance for such foolish arrogance. When I pray, I sense the Spirit being grieved by sozo calling His blood bought children Christ-hating perverts. He needs to publicly apologize for his public slander. Instead, he equates himself to Jesus and Paul in his wisdom and authority. I am disappointed that you blindly follow his deception.

I never said you weren't a believer. I just said you're wrong.