Ah, another sumptuous meal from the kitchen of Mama Tam
Savor the flavor, those less fortunate...
ECT 3 Questions for my MAD and YEC friends
- Thread starter patman
- Start date
Ah, another sumptuous meal from the kitchen of Mama Tam
Savor the flavor, those less fortunate...
Before the fall, was it impossible for Adam or Eve to die physically?
It is hard to imagine that there was no death at all before the fall. Even if you just consider man (humans).
If no human could die before the fall, then Adam & Eve could have sunk deep into quicksand and remained alive there.
Or smashed by a large falling rock, and remained alive with their guts hanging out.
Trip over a log and break their neck.
I mean, there were tons of ways for them to die physically.
Are we to assume that God would stop you in your tracks and make you turn around before you stepped in quicksand? Or stop any falling rocks from hitting you?
Can you see the implications of "no death" for them (Adam & Eve).
They could have done anything they wanted to do, and not die because of it.
They could jump in the ocean, and maybe tie a rock to themselves so they could sink way down and look around for days or weeks without ever suffocating.
Just think of all the possibilities there are if you could not die.
Well, I suppose one could bring up:
Or ...
Lots of times with scripture, you can always find another scripture with an exception to the scripture you just posted.
It is hard to imagine that there was no death at all before the fall. Even if you just consider man (humans).
If no human could die before the fall, then Adam & Eve could have sunk deep into quicksand and remained alive there.
Or smashed by a large falling rock, and remained alive with their guts hanging out.
Trip over a log and break their neck.
I mean, there were tons of ways for them to die physically.
Are we to assume that God would stop you in your tracks and make you turn around before you stepped in quicksand? Or stop any falling rocks from hitting you?
Can you see the implications of "no death" for them (Adam & Eve).
They could have done anything they wanted to do, and not die because of it.
They could jump in the ocean, and maybe tie a rock to themselves so they could sink way down and look around for days or weeks without ever suffocating.
Just think of all the possibilities there are if you could not die.
Well, I suppose one could bring up:
Revelation 9 KJV
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Or ...
Matthew 4 KJV
(6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Lots of times with scripture, you can always find another scripture with an exception to the scripture you just posted.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Neither Adam nor Eve possessed immortal bodies before the fall. As long as they ate of the tree of life then they would not die physically. But after the fall we read:
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).
I think the point is, they were designed to live forever in the garden.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, as long as they ate of the tree of life. But they were not created with immortal bodies.
Hi , and why do you not start an OP on what Mid-Acts means ??
Most dispensationalist do not know WHY , do you ??
Many do not agree with what I write , and is ok with me !!
In the assembly I attend , we have a Act 9 and and Acts 13 and a former Pastor was and Acts 13 , but refused to say WHY !!
What are you ??
If you are Acts 9 , prove it by verses , if you can ?
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The members of the Body of Christ will partake in that kingdom on earth. After all, we are told that after we are caught up to meet Him in the air then we shall forever be with Him:
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).
So when He returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom we will return with Him and remain with Him on the earth for one thousand years.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I find it impossible to believe that those who received the book of Hebrews through Jude were not aware of the gospel of the grace of God. Therefore, they too would be members of the body of Christ. Do you agree?
They both taught that a person was saved by faith alone. And they both taught that in theory a person could be saved by their own works apart from faith. Here is what Paul said about that:
"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good" (Ro.2:5-10).
Here Paul speaks of God's judgment of man according to his deeds (or works).Those who "continue" in well doing will receive eternal life.
And here the Lord Jesus says practically the same thing:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
In both cases we can see that it is at least theoretically possible for a man to inherit eternal life by his own works. But Paul makes it plain that no one can receive eternal life by their works, writing that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." James wrote that if you break just one commandment then you are guilty of all.
So if a person is going to be saved on the basis of his works then he must live a perfect life. And the only man who has ever done that is the Lord Jesus. So the only way left by which a person can be saved is by grace through faith.
Now a question for you. Do you believe like those in the Neo-MAD camp that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In order to determine when the present dispensation began we have to first determine exactly what event determine its beginning. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:
"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).
"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).
The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to the "grace of God," a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:
"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).
This is the gospel of the uncircumcision and it was first preached at Acts 13:46-48. That marks the beginning of the present dispensation.
Hi and I know that some feel that Acts 13 was the beginning of a preaching ministry of Paul !
But Grace began with the salvation of Paul as he was saved by Grace Gal 1:15 !!
The Dispensation of Grace DID NOT begin with its preaching but with a person " born out of DUE TIME " 1Cor 15:8 !!
So Paul was saved in Acts 9:6 and NOT in Acts 13 as Paul was going to preach to in Acts 9:15 !!
dan p
Jerry S, meet Dan P.
Dan P, meet Jerry S.
The two, a self-portrait of the other.
The schizophrenic Jerry-at-tricks.
Why schizophrenic?
Because Jerry is Acts 13.
His other half - Dan P - is Acts 9.
I suggest your two personalities merge as one... as Acts 9:6.
Again, Jerry S, meet Dan P.
Dan P, meet Jerry S.
You two hash out all the issues for the rest of us. I for one could care less what you two need others to prove to you and or with you.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
We are not taking about when grace began but instead when the "dispensation" or "stewardship" of grace began.
And I demonstrated that the stewardship responsibility concerning the present dispensation did not begin until the "gospel of the grace of God" was preached. And I believe that happened at Acts 13.
you have not even said what you believe is the dispensational responsibility during the present dispensation. What do you believe it is?
Why is that important?
Hi Jerry S , and I am am always glad to present the Body of Christ began with SAUL / PAUL which is my message !
My Dispensational reponsibility is found in Eph 3:9 to make all see what is the Dispensation of the MYSTERY !!
I am still laughing at DANOH , :rotfl::rotfl:
I wonder IF Danoh will explain why many call themselves Mid-Acts ??
A question for you , When did Paul learn and taught the Dispensation of the Grace of God ??
It could have NOT BEEN been at Acts 13 !!
dan p
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The stewardship responsibility during the present dispensation is to preach the gospel of the grace of God--not to teach the dispensation of the grace of God.
No one preached that gospel until Paul received the commission to preach it to the Gentiles from the Lord Jesus:
"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).
that was Paul's dispensational responsibility and a new dispensation cannot begin until the dispensational responsibility is exercised. and Paul did not preach the gospel of God's grace until he preached it to the Gentiles at Acts 13.
And that is exactly what the following is about:
"While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" (Acts 13:2).
The work which Paul and Barnabas were called to do by the Holy Spirit was to preach the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.
But you confuse teaching the "gospel of the grace of God" with teaching the "dispensation of the grace of God."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is important if we are to understand how Adam and Eve were created. Do you disagree with anything which I said about this subject?
You mean "how" as in the situation they were placed into?
They were placed in a situation where they could have spent eternity with God.
I don't see any need to say their bodies were not immortal when they were designed to live for eternity.
Hi Jerry and OIKONOMIA means the HOUSE LAWS and these house rules are the following :
Eternal life
Sealing by the HS
justification
entrance into the body
reconciliation
rapture/departure
ministry of reconciation
You get the idea !!
Paul was NOT saved in Acts 13 as 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 tell all !!
SAUL / PAUL was the FIRST /PROTO to be saved before he was born , in Gal 1:15 , and SEPARATED before Peter , sorry RCC !!
Understand your position , BUT the BOC did not begin in Acts 13 NOR can you prove it and it yours and not mine !!
Saul was saved in Acts 9:6
First in the BOC , 1Tim 1:15 and 16
First one saved by Grace , Gal 1:15
1 Cor 12:3 is proof of that salvation
1 Cor 12:13 makes Saul FIRST in the BOC
Rom 1:1 at his salvation , SAUL was SEPARATED , which is in the Greek Perfect Tense and that means from the point of Saul being separated unto the Gospel of God .
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If their bodies were made immortal then they would not have died. But they did die.
So their bodies were not made immortal.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Not quite.
That word means "the management of a householdor of household affairs; specifically the management, oversight, administration, of other’s property; the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship" (Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon).
In the following verses the Greek word oikonomia is translated "stewardship":
"There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses" (Lk. 16: 1-4).
Paul's stewardship responsibility was to preach the "gospel of the grace of God" to the Gentiles and no stewardship begins until the stewardship responsibility is exercised. and that happened at Acts 13.
This is really not that complicated if you know the meaning of the Greek word oikonomia and you did not know the meaning of that word. now that you know its true meaning perhaps you can understand when the present "dispensation (stewardship) of the grace of God" began.