CherubRam
New member
I just wanted to define between the observant Jews and the Pagan Jews. So, was Christ a Pagan Jew introducing the Pagan belief of Hell?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
I just wanted to define between the observant Jews and the Pagan Jews. So, was Christ a Pagan Jew introducing the Pagan belief of Hell?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Pagan adaptations? Welcome to the Club......
Pagan adaptations? Welcome to the Club......
Way 2 Go is still having problems with understanding 'aionios' (explained here), which indicates that which belongs to an age, epoch or dispensation,....its an indefinite duration of time, and does not necessarily mean what the English word 'eternal' means (as unending), - just more translation problems and the refusal to question the barbaric and insane doctrine of ECT. I've already addressed these points with him elsewhere but he goes right back to assuming 'English word meanings' into the original language. This is textually dishonest, and disregards the original writers and what they meant. Its usurping your own 'interpretation' upon anothers writing, failing to take specific words and context into consideration. And don't forget ECT fails morally and philosophically on so many levels.
See: Stop the insanity
As we know,....the Jewish bible has little teaching at all on what later developed as the 'hellfire' doctrine, and only spoke of sheol, the grave, the abode of the dead, the underworld (or that place of their ancestors, it was a very primitive tribal concept for starters). - this later got confused or mingled with later 'hell' developments as a place of punishment or suffering for the dead (especially in the intertestamental/apocryphal period), gathered from other cultures and their mythologies. As far as what differentiates an 'observant Jew' from a 'Pagan Jew',...I guess its apples and oranges,...same fruit, just different forms
- in any case,...a 'pagan jew' has a better versatility philosophically speaking, infusing pagan mythology and concepts into his theology, but even these must be intellectually weighed and spiritually discerned if they be tenable or even probable.
In any case,...what present day traditional Jews believe about what has been deemed by the English word 'hell', is a development and adaptation not from their own scriptures per se (not much on it), but what was 'added' into the concept from pagan influences and adaptive thinking.
Pagan adaptations? Welcome to the Club......
Way 2 Go is still having problems with understanding 'aionios' (explained here), which indicates that which belongs to an age, epoch or dispensation,....its an indefinite duration of time, and does not necessarily mean what the English word 'eternal' means (as unending), - just more translation problems and the refusal to question the barbaric and insane doctrine of ECT. I've already addressed these points with him elsewhere but he goes right back to assuming 'English word meanings' into the original language. This is textually dishonest, and disregards the original writers and what they meant. Its usurping your own 'interpretation' upon anothers writing, failing to take specific words and context into consideration. And don't forget ECT fails morally and philosophically on so many levels.
See: Stop the insanity
As we know,....the Jewish bible has little teaching at all on what later developed as the 'hellfire' doctrine, and only spoke of sheol, the grave, the abode of the dead, the underworld (or that place of their ancestors, it was a very primitive tribal concept for starters). - this later got confused or mingled with later 'hell' developments as a place of punishment or suffering for the dead (especially in the intertestamental/apocryphal period), gathered from other cultures and their mythologies. As far as what differentiates an 'observant Jew' from a 'Pagan Jew',...I guess its apples and oranges,...same fruit, just different forms
- in any case,...a 'pagan jew' has a better versatility philosophically speaking, infusing pagan mythology and concepts into his theology, but even these must be intellectually weighed and spiritually discerned if they be tenable or even probable.In any case,...what present day traditional Jews believe about what has been deemed by the English word 'hell', is a development and adaptation not from their own scriptures per se (not much on it), but what was 'added' into the concept from pagan influences and adaptive thinking.
Matthew 25:46 proves that there is eternal punishment, but it doesn't specify whether that punishment is eternal torture or annihilation. Matthew 25:46 does prove that only ONE group receives eternal life. If the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is correct, then those who are being tortured alive also would receive eternal life. So whatever the eternal punishment consists of, it cannot be eternal life being tortured alive in hell. So what is left as a possiblity? Only eternal death. It is true that Matthew 25:46 does not specifically say that the eternal punishment is destruction. OTHER verses specify that the punishment of the wicked is destruction. In the same way, Matthew 25:46 does not prove that the eternal punishment is to be sent to hell to live forever tortured by fire, and actually proves that one group receives eternal life and the other group does not receive eternal life, which is (not coincidentally) EXACTLY what I believe.
So to restate what you said in another way:
Matthew 25:46 proves that there is eternal punishment, not eternal conscious torment.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Living the life as priority....................
Living the life as priority....................
Once again, ECT is immoral by its own concept, illogical philosophically, and legally insane as well if such were considered as a matter in court, whether an earthy or heavenly one. - any person, government or agency condemning a conscious entity to a state of endless and unescapable torment is heinous.
Conditional immortality has more support scripturally, if you want to argue what is "biblical" (a term I find arbitrary anyhow).
We've also argued over what 'death' is, how its defined, what is its 'state' or 'condition', which is another 'conundrum' here. The ECT view assumes those suffering in hellfire do NOT have 'eternal life' (this is a gift of God, and is the God-kind of life, - we can also call this 'immortality'), so those left is such a dire condition do not enjoy the positive effect of God's presence. The 'conditional immortality' view holds that ultimately those who wholly embrace iniquity and make a final and complete choice to reject 'God'(life)....ultimately PERISH...they are disintegrated, destroyed, terminated (they reap the full sowing of sin to its ultimate end),....'death' here is a the absence of any conscious existence. - so this is all a matter of terms, meanings and their definitions.....how we 'contextualize' it all.
Its dancing in circles more or less, beyond any rational assumptions we can glean from the discussion. John 3:16 being traditionally used as a 'salvation verse' still HOLDS,.....those who believe/receive and accept the SON (God's expression of life, his personal representative, his anointed messenger, his living logos, etc.) are granted eternal life, while those who reject the SON perish. - again a matter of terms and their meaning.
While this is all interesting, I think it best those who claim belief in Jesus, to focus on living the Christ-life and focusing on that as their first occupation.
Living the life as priority....................
Once again, ECT is immoral by its own concept, illogical philosophically, and legally insane as well if such were considered as a matter in court, whether an earthy or heavenly one. - any person, government or agency condemning a conscious entity to a state of endless and unescapable torment is heinous.
Conditional immortality has more support scripturally, if you want to argue what is "biblical" (a term I find arbitrary anyhow).
We've also argued over what 'death' is, how its defined, what is its 'state' or 'condition', which is another 'conundrum' here. The ECT view assumes those suffering in hellfire do NOT have 'eternal life' (this is a gift of God, and is the God-kind of life, - we can also call this 'immortality'), so those left is such a dire condition do not enjoy the positive effect of God's presence. The 'conditional immortality' view holds that ultimately those who wholly embrace iniquity and make a final and complete choice to reject 'God'(life)....ultimately PERISH...they are disintegrated, destroyed, terminated (they reap the full sowing of sin to its ultimate end),....'death' here is a the absence of any conscious existence. - so this is all a matter of terms, meanings and their definitions.....how we 'contextualize' it all.
Its dancing in circles more or less, beyond any rational assumptions we can glean from the discussion. John 3:16 being traditionally used as a 'salvation verse' still HOLDS,.....those who believe/receive and accept the SON (God's expression of life, his personal representative, his anointed messenger, his living logos, etc.) are granted eternal life, while those who reject the SON perish. - again a matter of terms and their meaning.
While this is all interesting, I think it best those who claim belief in Jesus, to focus on living the Christ-life and focusing on that as their first occupation.
Zeke
Well-known member
Only a mental program can suffer such forethought, a parasitical implant by cultural controllers/teachers who benefit by keeping people in a fear/taboo motif, warping the view of mans connection to Divinity through religious pride hiding in theology which is a wall/stronghold of separation that one must knock down themselves, Luke 17:20-21.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Let 'God' arise..................
Let 'God' arise..................
Indeed, if Jesus taught the kingdom of heaven is within (inside; amongst; in the midst of our own 'consciousness')....it is not something that comes with 'observation' or some intellectual construct or physical sign, since it is primarily an inner illumination/recognition/intuitive and spiritual reality at the very core of our being (of 'God-consciousness'), which is inherent in the very spirit-essence of divinity itself. If that spirit-divinity is already indwelling man, then it is but for his own realization or awakening to that 'presence' and 'interaction' with it that is the dawning of the 'kingdom' (realm or reign of 'God') in one's own soul.
ECT would forever terminate the divine potential of consciousness itself, a curious endeavor of God sabotaging his own divine will and purpose, a truly self-defeating gesture.
Let 'God' arise..................
Indeed, if Jesus taught the kingdom of heaven is within (inside; amongst; in the midst of our own 'consciousness')....it is not something that comes with 'observation' or some intellectual construct or physical sign, since it is primarily an inner illumination/recognition/intuitive and spiritual reality at the very core of our being (of 'God-consciousness'), which is inherent in the very spirit-essence of divinity itself. If that spirit-divinity is already indwelling man, then it is but for his own realization or awakening to that 'presence' and 'interaction' with it that is the dawning of the 'kingdom' (realm or reign of 'God') in one's own soul.
ECT would forever terminate the divine potential of consciousness itself, a curious endeavor of God sabotaging his own divine will and purpose, a truly self-defeating gesture.
way 2 go
Well-known member
yet Jesus says everlasting punishment
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
way 2 go
Well-known member
and once they are done there is nothing you can do to their body
but their spirit still exists
spiritually dead just like they were in this life only living in a lake of fire
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
yes it proves eternal punishment because it says eternal punishment :duh:
you and Illegitimate Totality Transfer of death , hold on to that and you will always be wrong.
can prove your position without it.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you another freelight ?
Exo 12:29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Illegitimate Totality Transfer of death , again :chuckle:
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
way 2 go
Well-known member
:darwinsm:
God is eternal and has given believers eternal life
and unbelievers eternal punishment.
As we know,....the Jewish bible has little teaching at all on what later developed as the 'hellfire' doctrine, and only spoke of sheol, the grave, the abode of the dead, the underworld (or that place of their ancestors, it was a very primitive tribal concept for starters). - this later got confused or mingled with later 'hell' developments as a place of punishment or suffering for the dead (especially in the intertestamental/apocryphal period), gathered from other cultures and their mythologies. As far as what differentiates an 'observant Jew' from a 'Pagan Jew',...I guess its apples and oranges,...same fruit, just different forms
In any case,...what present day traditional Jews believe about what has been deemed by the English word 'hell', is a development and adaptation not from their own scriptures per se (not much on it), but what was 'added' into the concept from pagan influences and adaptive thinking.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Zeke
Well-known member
And the facts about this event has no historical weight behind it, the intent being symbolic in reference to the kingdom within Luke 17:20-21, Galatians 4:23-28, Gen 32:30, yet the the historic phantom live on in the minds of men.
I see. And the ONLY punishment possible, the ONLY punishment that you can think of is Eternal Torture.
I would hate to be one of YOUR kids! You didn't eat your vegetables, I have to torture you. Didn't do your homework, more torture. Late for school? Torture.
OBVIOUSLY, eternal torture in Hell is the ONLY way to punish a person. You don't have any idea of what you are talking about. Matthew 25:46 absolutely does NOT prove that there is eternal conscious torture in hell, not matter how much you wish it were true. Why don't you give up and accept what the Bible says?
CherubRam
New member
For some reason people are not able to read the quote above. How come you can not see or hear what is being said?
CherubRam said:
I don't think that you will get an answer from anyone who believes that the godless will be given eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever. They must think that the Bible does not mean what it says.
way 2 go
Well-known member
no hope because it is eternal punishment
Heb_9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment
Did you read Job 27:8? God takes away their life. They have no hope because God takes away their life. God takes away their life AS A RESULT of the the Judgment spoken of in Hebrews 9:27. The Bible does not contradict itself. If they are given eternal life to spend it in hell being tortured alive forever, then they have not had their life taken away. I sure that you can understand this.