Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

clefty · Feb 10, 2019

God's Truth said:
All the special days are about Jesus.

yup STILL are

We don’t have to observe special days anymore, we have to observe Jesus all day every day.

those that did NEVER felt they HAD to...we WANT to...not to get saved but because we ARE

Then why are you going against me for saying Jesus made a new covenant?

I agree there is a new covenant...He lived and demonstrated how we should live this new covenant...

I am against you conflating law with covenant and that you insist the Yahushua changed the customs of believers Moses delivered to us...that is FALSE WITNESS

What?

He is our immortal High Priest...all others were mortal...is why the administration of the unchanging Law was changed...NOT THE LAW

There is a new law, a new covenant, new rules and guidelines, a last will and testament.

yup He lived and taught and demonstrated to us as our example...IF YOU LOVE HIM

Jesus did change the law. No more eye for eye and hand for hand and foot for foot. No more stoning to death for some sins. No more cut off without mercy. It is a faith based law. No more purification works. No more go to a temple.

those ordinance you just listed were indeed blotted but the Law remains...and remains a faith based law...IN HIM...purifying us into becoming images of Him...not our former selves certainly not of the world...MADE INTO HIS IMAGE...again...and finally...by HIM

We are warned about a bitter root which defiles many.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

Do you know what that means?

I do, but I want to see if you do.

sure...not to be bitter as those who are cut off...for their unbelief and disobedience...

Falling short of the grace...

is BECAUSE you lost your first love...His burden is now too heavy His yoke NOT easy...

Any love NOT FELT is quickly bitter...ask around

God's Truth · Feb 10, 2019

genuineoriginal said:
Yes, God is over Jesus and has made Jesus the king of kings and has Jesus sitting on the throne with God.

They are one and the same. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

7djengo7 · Feb 10, 2019

genuineoriginal said:
Are you attempting to claim that every time the word "the" is used it always means "the one and only"?

No. Are you?
I, for one, never claim that the word "the" means "the one and only". Only a fool would claim that, inasmuch as the phrase "the one and only" contains the word "the".

Now, answer the question:

Is THE ruler of all of Egypt EQUAL TO THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?[/QUOTE]

God's Truth · Feb 10, 2019

clefty said:
yup STILL are

We don’t have to observe special days anymore, we have to observe Jesus all day every day.

clefty said:
those that did NEVER felt they HAD to...we WANT to...not to get saved but because we ARE

You really want to speak for all the Jews since the beginning of the law?
They had to do the rules and regulations for the law or they would be cut off. The Gentiles didn’t want to and they didn’t and that is why they were without God in the world.
Moses proves you wrong. What was going to happen to him when he wasn’t going to circumcise his son?

clefty said:
I agree there is a new covenant...He lived and demonstrated how we should live this new covenant...

I am against you conflating law with covenant and that you insist the Yahushua changed the customs of believers Moses delivered to us...that is FALSE WITNESS
He is our immortal High Priest...all others were mortal...is why the administration of the unchanging Law was changed...NOT THE LAW

The fact that there is a new covenant proves there were changes to it; and the scriptures say there were changes to it. Are you going to sit in judgment of the scriptures?

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Why do you go against what is written?

clefty said:
There is a new law, a new covenant, new rules and guidelines, a last will and testament.
yup He lived and taught and demonstrated to us as our example...IF YOU LOVE HIM

If you love him you will obey his commands.

clefty said:
those ordinance you just listed were indeed blotted but the Law remains...

Those ordinances WERE the law.

clefty said:
and remains a faith based law...IN HIM...

The old law was NOT based on faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

clefty said:
purifying us into becoming images of Him...not our former selves certainly not of the world...MADE INTO HIS IMAGE...again...and finally...by HIM

sure...not to be bitter as those who are cut off...for their unbelief and disobedience...

Falling short of the grace...

No, it means you are trying make people do the old law to be justified.

clefty said:
is BECAUSE you lost your first love...His burden is now too heavy His yoke NOT easy...

Any love NOT FELT is quickly bitter...ask around

No, remember your First Love means to remember Jesus and his teachings and obey.

God's Truth · Feb 10, 2019

clefty said:
point is that as a throne there is no place for a Holy Spirit to sit...so either He has to stand the whole time...NOT EQUAL WITH THE OTHER TWO or maybe it’s Yah’s spirit needing no third third place to sit...

The Holy Spirit is INSIDE the physical body of Jesus.

clefty said:
Didn’t forget we are discussing the majesty of a Perfect Being His PERFECT UNCHANGED LAW

I gave scripture that says it was about Jesus and he fulfilled it when he came and the old law is no more because there is a new law. The new law is the old law with some changes.

God's Truth · Feb 10, 2019

clefty said:
Oh right...forgot you are not just dense as a brick but are literally an entire building...

Buildings are about earthy things and don't matter anymore.

7djengo7 · Feb 10, 2019

genuineoriginal said:
The Jews thought was claiming to be equal with God. Jesus corrected that false belief and repeated that He is the Son of God. You go beyond the mistake the Jews made because they thought Jesus claimed to be equal with God and you think Jesus claimed to be God Himself .

You're mistaking John 10:33 KJV for John 5:18 KJV.

Here's John 10:33 KJV:

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Here's John 5:18 KJV:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

In John 10:33 KJV, the Jews acknowledged, correctly, that Jesus was claiming to be God.

In John 5:18 KJV, John, himself, acknowledges, correctly, that Jesus, by saying that God was His Father, was MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. In this verse, John is stating what it was that Jesus did and said that provoked the Jews to seek the more to kill Him.

Nowhere, whether in John 10, or elsewhere, does Jesus EVER contradict the Jews' acknowledgement that Jesus was claiming to be God. And, Jesus certainly never contradicts John's acknowledgement that Jesus was making Himself equal with God.

God's Truth · Feb 10, 2019

genuineoriginal said:
If their understanding was right, then Jesus lied when He corrected them.
In fact, if Jesus is God Himself, then Jesus spent most of His time on earth lying to everyone.

God the Father came as a Son of God and a Son of man.

Jesus forgave sins, and ONLY GOD CAN FORGIVE SINS.

Mark 2:7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Matthew 9:6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 1:77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven

7djengo7 · Feb 10, 2019

genuineoriginal said:
You are too irrational to understand, but for the sake of others I will explain.
There are things that the Bible teaches, and those things are always true.
There are doctrines of men that are not taught by the Bible, but men believe them because they can point to verses they don't understand as "proof" of their non-Biblical doctrines. These "proof texts" from the Bible support their beliefs, even when those beliefs are never taught by the Bible.

Why did you put quotes around the word 'proof', but not around the word 'support'?
What (if anything) would you say it is for a proposition to be SUPPORTED?

way 2 go · Feb 10, 2019

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Dartman said:
Let's look at your proof text.
DOES it say "Jesus is God".

yes Jesus used the same name I AM

Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

Does it say Jesus IS before Abraham WAS?

YES!

No , it says Before Abraham was, I am. an eternity of difference from what you said .

And all we have to do is look at God's statement in Gen 3:15, AND look at what Enoch was preaching, found in Jude, ..... AND YES!! Jesus IS there~!!

And, THAT is why Abraham rejoiced to SEE CHRIST'S DAY.

Yes Jesus has always existed
Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

7djengo7 · Feb 10, 2019

TrevorL said:
Greetings again 7djengo7, Neither. The Jews in John 10:30-36 did not believe that Jesus is God, otherwise they would not have accused him of blasphemy. Rather they accused Jesus of blasphemy because they assumed that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus rejected their accusation and answered their false accusation thoroughly and summarized this by stating that he was the Son of God. You and glorydaz align yourselves with their wrong assessment and accusation.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings, Earthling:

Jesus never once contradicted the Jews' acknowledgement of the truth that Jesus was claiming to be God; not in John 10, nor anywhere else. Where, in John 10:30-36 KJV, would YOU claim that Jesus did so? Try to explain just why it is that you imagine Jesus did so in that passage. Have fun.

The proposition, 'Jesus is the Son of God', is neither a contrary of, nor the contradictory of, the proposition, 'Jesus is God'. The contradictory of 'Jesus is God' is, of course, 'Jesus is not God'.

Nanu, nanu
Mork

TrevorL · Feb 10, 2019

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,

SonOfCaleb said:
With all due respect you dont know the first thing about me, my faith as a JW nor the research material i use. So if we're going to converse A) Do not make crass presumptions and B) Change your tone. I own a considerable amount on the topic of linguistics and etymology as its personal interest of mine. These are topics that i have stuided extensively. The mere fact you've made such a ridculous statement (underlined above) is clear testament to how little you know about the JW's. So again do not insult me or my faith otherwise this discussion is done.

I must apologise for my strong assertions. I assumed that you were relatively young, but now I read “old timer” above your avatar and I could have had more respect and been less harsh. Nevertheless I do suggest that some of the things that you stated were incorrect and I hope you will consider these. The two different versions of YHWH occur as a result of when Adonai Yahweh is in the Hebrew text, and the vowel pointings of Elohim are added to YHWH so that the Hebrew reader and speaker does not say “Adonai Adonai” but “Adonai Elohim”. Perhaps you could compare the vowel pointings for YHWH in Isaiah 50:1 (LORD KJV, NKJV) compared to that in Isaiah 50:4 (GOD KJV, NKJV).

Kind regards
Trevor

TrevorL · Feb 10, 2019

Greetings again 7djengo7,

7djengo7 said:
Greetings, Earthling: Jesus never once contradicted the Jews' acknowledgement of the truth that Jesus was claiming to be God; not in John 10, nor anywhere else. Where, in John 10:30-36 KJV, would YOU claim that Jesus did so? Try to explain just why it is that you imagine Jesus did so in that passage. Have fun.
The proposition, 'Jesus is the Son of God', is neither a contrary of, nor the contradictory of, the proposition, 'Jesus is God'. The contradictory of 'Jesus is God' is, of course, 'Jesus is not God'. Nanu, nanu Mork

There are a number of items in the answer of Jesus, and I will underline each of these, and then underline his statement that he is the Son of God, and hence not God as they assessed and accused him of blasphemy.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
We could consider each of the above in detail, but have you considered why the Judges were called “gods” or “Elohim” in Psalm 82:6 and Exodus 21:6? What is the relevance of this in the answer of Jesus?

Kind regards
Trevor

Apple7 · Feb 10, 2019

SonOfCaleb said:
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence".

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

The NWT translators have absolutely no background in NT Greek as demonstrated in the first section of John 1.1 -18, in which they arbitrarily assign θεος which occurs eight times and is arthrous in only two of these instances (verses 1 & 2). The NWT translates θεος as ‘God’, once as ‘a god’, and once as ‘the god’.

way 2 go · Feb 10, 2019

Dartman said:
.... ok.
The Scriptures ALSO state that each believer has glory before the world existed.

no .

That doesn't mean Jesus was THERE. It means God had complete foreknowledge of the events about to unfold after Christ's prayer. And that God had glory planned for his beloved son.

God had glory planned for ALL the believers;

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son,that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

1 Cor 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

neither verse states your premise "each believer has glory before the world existed "

I will answer this like you did my points above;

Try again.

Jesus says he had glory before the creation of the world and Jesus is saying glorify me again with that glory He had previously .

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

way 2 go · Feb 10, 2019

genuineoriginal said:
The Jews thought was claiming to be equal with God. Jesus corrected that false belief and repeated that He is the Son of God. You go beyond the mistake the Jews made because they thought Jesus claimed to be equal with God and you think Jesus claimed to be God Himself .

Jesus claimed to be "I am." of Exo_3:14 which is why Jesus Knows Abraham

Exo_3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

for context:
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

7djengo7 · Feb 10, 2019

TrevorL said:
Greetings again 7djengo7, There are a number of items in the answer of Jesus, and I will underline each of these, and then underline his statement that he is the Son of God, and hence not God as they assessed and accused him of blasphemy.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
We could consider each of the above in detail, but have you considered why the Judges were called “gods” or “Elohim” in Psalm 82:6 and Exodus 21:6? What is the relevance of this in the answer of Jesus?

Kind regards
Trevor

In John 10:30-36 KJV, Jesus says nothing, whatsoever, that implies, nor even remotely resembles "HENCE, I am NOT God" or "HENCE, I am not YAHWEH." Yet, you pretend to think that He does. So, feel free to try to explain why, exactly, you say that He does.

clefty · Feb 10, 2019

God's Truth said:
We don’t have to observe special days anymore, we have to observe Jesus all day every day.

and by that you mean we DON’T have to keep His commandments...DON’T have to follow Him His way becoming more like He was or living as He did...

Cuz when I observe Him I observe Him instructing us Matt 23:2 “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach...”

You really want to speak for all the Jews since the beginning of the law?

sure...those that did wanted to...those that didnt want to didnt and fell into doing something else...unbelieving otherwise first...

They had to do the rules and regulations for the law or they would be cut off. The Gentiles didn’t want to and they didn’t and that is why they were without God in the world.

Goyim were with them the whole time as the Sabbath commandment is the only one that includes them...the irony...

ONE LAW for native and goyim alike...goyim crowded synagogues to hear of One resurrected...begged for more the next Sabbath and then almost the whole city showed up...on Sabbath

Moses proves you wrong. What was going to happen to him when he wasn’t going to circumcise his son?

circumcision NEVER saved...as how can something done TO you by others save you without your consent? Is why we don’t baptise infants even...

The fact that there is a new covenant proves there were changes to it; and the scriptures say there were changes to it. Are you going to sit in judgment of the scriptures?[

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Why do you go against what is written?

you ever sell a house car or shoes? You change owners not the thing sold...the transfer of the Law to another administration happens all the time as it did when He became its Final High Priest to ministrate it...

If you love him you will obey his commands.

yup even pray you wont break the Sabbath fleeing future persecutions...or have to flee in the winter...He obviously expected winters and Sabbaths to continue...

Those ordinances WERE the law.

without law there is not debt...you just destroyed the reason you need a Savior...destroy the Law...destroy your need of salvation...

Those ordinance were hand written NOT by the finger of Yah...His Law was...By His own Finger

The old law was NOT based on faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

LOL you are really twisted and tortured over this...you dont just have faith in the law you DO IT...and live...not just faith but actually live...the man who does shall live by them...we are redeemed from its curse thus live...we are NOT redeemed from THE LAW...is why Judgement Day remains...and Paul is clear we ESTABISH LAW...the the law we establish represents the One we serve

No, it means you are trying make people do the old law to be justified.

NOPE...once justified is what His people WANT TO DO...no bitterness as they are IN LOVE...

No, remember your First Love means to remember Jesus and his teachings and obey.

Yup...IN LOVE with Him is to realize what He did for you...and thus love His teachings and want to obey...is why His yoke is easy and His burden is light...no bitterness

clefty · Feb 10, 2019

God's Truth said:
The Holy Spirit is INSIDE the physical body of Jesus.

ummm wow so two persons in the same space...maybe one is on the other’s bosom?

I gave scripture that says it was about Jesus and he fulfilled it when he came and the old law is no more because there is a new law. The new law is the old law with some changes.

In the 10 what changed? NOTHING

Is why Heb 4:9

Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua...

That faith of Yahushua...did He teach no need to observe any of the commandments? Did He demonstrate NOT doing His Father’s will?

That faith of Yahushua did He do away with the Sabbath? Do we see Him worshiping on another day or according to His custom...

Having changed the priesthood to Himself He could have...I mean being Lord of the Sabbath right? It is in the best interest of Lord of London to destroy the very city that gives him his authority? RIGHT? LOL

The new law is INDEED the old law...is why Isaiah said From Sabbath to Sabbath ALL flesh shall worship...Is 66:23

clefty · Feb 10, 2019

God's Truth said:
Buildings are about earthy things and don't matter anymore.

Wait wut? Earthy things dont matter anymore? WOW...that He resurrected with a glorified body of flesh and blood and bones...Mattered to Thomas...matters to me

That He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...Word became Flesh...

That He will make a new earth for us to live...resurrected or twinkled into our own bodies glorified to eat of the tree of life...and not as spirits...that day He appears again here on earth...

If earthy things didnt matter WHY SHOULD HE RETURN?

WOW...you are EXACTLY WRONG

He made it all physical FOR MAN...but you reject His Sabbath He made for Man... makes sense it all else matters NOT to you...

Since the SHADOWS which are pointing to the good things yet to come matter not to you...that reward then too matters NOT...

life on the new earth living where “I AM” and as HE DOES...in HIS IMAGE...

Earthy things don’t matter...LOL

Sad actually...all He did for you...rejected

Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

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