If God created...

Rosenritter

New member
Are you suggesting that life just popped into existence from some "nothingness"?

If you believe that once upon a time there was nothing, and now there is something, then I guess you must. Are you of the modern school of thought that acknowledges that the matter in motion is traced to an event, or of the older school of thought that says that all that we see now always existed like this for eternity?

It's either one or the other.
 

Stuu

New member
Everything I hear about the newest findings of cellular life is that each of them are 'cities' of activity which all have to work right the first time--created. That's what it has to do with living organisms.
What is the point you are trying to make here? You have no argument from me about the complexity of cells. I suspect there is no-one alive with a complete understanding of just how complex living cells are. Why did you write the word 'created'? Did you mean to beg the question?

What does reproduce with variation mean anyway? Not that much variation.
No, indeed tiny variations, which accumulate over long periods of time. There is obviously variation in the human population but the accumulation is so slow that you could bring up a child born 30,000 years ago in a modern family and you wouldn't notice much difference compared to a child born this century.

Most mutations are fails, if that's what you mean.


Mutations can be deleterious, in which case they may lead to cell death or organism death or disease;

they can be neutral because the changes in DNA code lead to a change that makes no difference, for example substituting a different amino acid in a protein but one that works the same way as the original one;

or very rarely the mutation could be beneficial, in the sense that it confers a trait that helps the organism to survive and reproduce better in its environment than others of its species.

Over time, that beneficial change will become more common in the population, and that is evolution by natural selection. The mutations are entirely random, but the selection pressure is exactly the opposite of random, it is very precise.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
There's a giggleplex of other biological machines at work, all of them required for a basic cell to function. I wonder how you would think that the cells could function in the first place, and survive in the first place, to be able to kidnap some other cell and then figure out how to put them to work for them, and obey orders...
I think you have to be careful if you want to claim that any of this is 'irreducible complexity'. No one is going to object to you claiming that a cell will stop functioning if you remove a critical component such as the mitochondria or the ribosomes. There are many ways of cells not working because a single component has been removed.

The claim of irreducible complexity really is that when you separate out all the machines in the cell you find that one of those machines has two or more parts to it that have no ancestry; ie: all of those parts would have to have arisen by separate beneficial mutations at the same time in the same organism, which would have such a low chance you would effectively call it impossible.

And of course such claims of irreducible complexity have been made. And resources have sometimes been made available to investigate those claims, for example when work was done to investigate the supposed irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellar motor system in relation to the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case relating to what could be taught in schools.

flag_labels.jpg


The diagram shows a tiny motor inserted in the membrane of a bacterium, with a filament that gets rotated very quickly to propel the bacterium along. This kind of bacterium lives on the dishcloth in your kitchen.

The motor is very complex, with many different parts working together. How could the DNA code for all these parts have formed at the same time by random mutation, to make a working motor?

No one has a perfect record of exactly how this system evolved, and that would require speculation that would test the imagination of microbiologists and geneticists. But the claim of irreducible complexity is a pretty simple hypothesis, and there is a way to test it.

If a precursor system can be found that is one part of the motor, but might be doing a different job, then the claim of irreducible complexity is disproved. So, is there any part of that motor that existed before the motor? Yes, the outer part is found in other, related bacteria, doing a different job. It's other job is as a protein excretor system.

So irreducible complexity is disproved in this case. And the story is similar across all claims of irreducible complexity.

What I find remarkable about this is the way it is a reminder of how evolution by natural selection is at the bottom of every single part of every system in biology. The ID creationists' best example turns out to be an elegant example of Darwinian adaptation!

Stuart
 

Jonahdog

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There's a giggleplex of other biological machines at work, all of them required for a basic cell to function. I wonder how you would think that the cells could function in the first place, and survive in the first place, to be able to kidnap some other cell and then figure out how to put them to work for them, and obey orders...

Which conveniently ignores any attempt to look at the original issue you brought up. Whence mitochondria. No interest in the details, hunh?
 

Jonahdog

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If you believe that once upon a time there was nothing, and now there is something, then I guess you must. Are you of the modern school of thought that acknowledges that the matter in motion is traced to an event, or of the older school of thought that says that all that we see now always existed like this for eternity?

It's either one or the other.

What is your point? Best I understand it, all this started some 13+ billion years ago. And no, I cannot explain it.
 

Stuu

New member
This is what was said:
The Precambrian was originally defined as the era that predated the emergence of life in the Cambrian Period. It also said they BELIEVE bacteria lived prior to the Cambrian.
Here's a picture of some Precambrian cyanobacteria:

Stromatolites.jpg


Stuart
 

6days

New member
Irreducibly complex doesn't just mean complex though, does it.

We all know that a Swiss watch is designed and manufactured by a watchmaker, and that there is a core of parts that work together to make the watch keep time, the removal of any one of which would stop the watch from working.

But what does that have to do with living organisms that reproduce with variation?

Stuart

Just as the screw in the watch can not self assemble, neither can molecular motors such as ATP synthase.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
In 1660s, Steno, who had a high view of Scripture and an excellent system of categorizing rock/soil samples was already using the 4 part sedimentary organization that was later hijacked by Lyell. Names like Jurassic, Devonian, Cambrian, etc, were usually names of villages in England where you could see the best example of a type of rock.

The primary group was from the creation period.
The secondary from the cataclysm.
the tertiary from the after the flood
the quaternary from the present (relative to the previous).

The cataclysm was viewed as such an enormous upheaval that there was no surprise finding marine fossils on the highest places of continents after the flood. Steno understood perfectly that these findings in the field would reveal a total upstaging of the 4 layers. yep, that's a cataclysm.

When Lyell came along imposing uniformitarianism everywhere, he detonated the past. (I have yet to find out how familiar he was with the 500 or so corroborating cataclysm accounts) He did this by imposing a new method that the present is the key to the past, as though you would start at the top and that was recent and at the bottom was the now-extreme past, thought to be in the millions. The science was unphased later when radioisotopes didn't really show this.

Between the two contrasting doctrines of Lyell's 'lots of year but little water' vs the Biblical 'lots of water/slurry in a short time', a person simply has to look at things as a detective and see for themselves whether a little water makes any sense.

For ex., the gang at Microsoft will post beautiful photos of geology as the days' screen saver and just dictate that it show millions of years. Really. How does a canyon 5 miles wide with multiple cavity starting points happen by a little river 30 yds across? Not. How do whole layers of sediment show up in reverse of uniformitarianism's orthodox listing and even inconsistent in other parts of such a huge canyon, and inconsistent again with a canyon 50 miles away?

So Darwin sat in the BEAGLE in Rio Vera Cruz reading Lyell and his theories of millions instead of looking at the Rio Vera Cruz basin and playing with mud and sand on the beach and figuring out, in a common sense way, how you end up with that huge basin, and a tiny river at the bottom at the end. Idiot. That was the biggest mistake or shift in modern science that has ever happened. It became non-science at that point, and quickly claimed to have as much power as the Pope or the Westminster Confession, to compensate for the embarrassment.
 

Jonahdog

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Banned
Jonah, always insisting on sources, have you actually not read anything about the latest on those infinitely tiny engines, factories, cities?

Is there some reason why you or 6days are unable to provide sources for your statements? You know that is usually how people support their positions when asked. Otherwise I would have to take your word for what you claim.
 

Jonahdog

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In 1660s, Steno, who had a high view of Scripture and an excellent system of categorizing rock/soil samples was already using the 4 part sedimentary organization that was later hijacked by Lyell. Names like Jurassic, Devonian, Cambrian, etc, were usually names of villages in England where you could see the best example of a type of rock.

The primary group was from the creation period.
The secondary from the cataclysm.
the tertiary from the after the flood
the quaternary from the present (relative to the previous).

The cataclysm was viewed as such an enormous upheaval that there was no surprise finding marine fossils on the highest places of continents after the flood. Steno understood perfectly that these findings in the field would reveal a total upstaging of the 4 layers. yep, that's a cataclysm.

When Lyell came along imposing uniformitarianism everywhere, he detonated the past. (I have yet to find out how familiar he was with the 500 or so corroborating cataclysm accounts) He did this by imposing a new method that the present is the key to the past, as though you would start at the top and that was recent and at the bottom was the now-extreme past, thought to be in the millions. The science was unphased later when radioisotopes didn't really show this.

Between the two contrasting doctrines of Lyell's 'lots of year but little water' vs the Biblical 'lots of water/slurry in a short time', a person simply has to look at things as a detective and see for themselves whether a little water makes any sense.

For ex., the gang at Microsoft will post beautiful photos of geology as the days' screen saver and just dictate that it show millions of years. Really. How does a canyon 5 miles wide with multiple cavity starting points happen by a little river 30 yds across? Not. How do whole layers of sediment show up in reverse of uniformitarianism's orthodox listing and even inconsistent in other parts of such a huge canyon, and inconsistent again with a canyon 50 miles away?

So Darwin sat in the BEAGLE in Rio Vera Cruz reading Lyell and his theories of millions instead of looking at the Rio Vera Cruz basin and playing with mud and sand on the beach and figuring out, in a common sense way, how you end up with that huge basin, and a tiny river at the bottom at the end. Idiot. That was the biggest mistake or shift in modern science that has ever happened. It became non-science at that point, and quickly claimed to have as much power as the Pope or the Westminster Confession, to compensate for the embarrassment.

So if Darwin was such an idiot it should have been simple for his theory to be shown to be incorrect after 150+ years. If you are so smart, you do it. You will make tons of $, Nobel prize, your picture will be chosen my Microsoft etc.
 

Rondonmonson

New member
If God created the earth and the universe with "the appearance of age", then what is the "apparent age" of the earth and the universe?

I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is 6000 years old.

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning ( The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So lets take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! Gods word is perfect, it is us who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from Gods POV, no man was there of course and with God he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words God lives in the past, present and future all at the same time.

7-30-wmap3.jpg



So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Suns formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His Holy Word and Science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates of course are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

On the Fifth day God created the Sea animals/birds and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so. On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the Land Animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 Million years ago. Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY) God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X Number of years, I never said Animal like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago, when God placed His spirit in us and thus we are immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing, because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.

On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So its not necessarily either or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven(SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).
 

JudgeRightly

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I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old?

Roughly 6000 years, yes, though an upper limit of about 10,000 years old.

Is the universe 13.7 billion years old?

No.

Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is 6000 years old.

Consider this:

https://answersingenesis.org/astron...ew-solution-to-the-light-travel-time-problem/

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old?

If the genealogies are to be believed, 6000 years is the minimum age, and 10,000 years the maximum.

I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways.

And yet, we still understand exactly what was being said.

For instance the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words.

Except the author of the first five books, including Genesis and Exodus, uses yom in the exact same context.

It's the same word used in Exodus 20:

982abc1f303d0a654074b3c22e628ed8.jpg

bfdb4d01553a3728046bd8b0c0b51a7f.jpg

64becf4b1e56776532c7908ee78810ab.jpg

4bca003461532f5145716f005432a0f7.jpg


A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

Yom means "day," and it could mean those other things. But Carbon-14 everywhere it shouldn't be means that the universe is young, and "yom" in Genesis 1 most likely means "day," as in, a 24-hour period.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning ( The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So lets take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Except God says that He created the stars on Day Four, not Day One. So that blows your entire theory out of the water.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! Gods word is perfect, it is us who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from Gods POV, no man was there of course and with God he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words God lives in the past, present and future all at the same time.

See kgov.com/time.

7-30-wmap3.jpg



So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

Except, again, God says He made the stars on Day Four, not Day One.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Suns formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly,

Did you forget that the Bible also says He placed the stars in the heavens?

I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided.

Made up nonsense.

Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His Holy Word and Science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates of course are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

Or, perhaps we can take God at His word, and believe that what is stated in the Bible happened exactly as it says it did.

Just a thought...

On the Fifth day God created the Sea animals/birds and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals?

The dinosaurs would have been created on the day appropriate to their design.

The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so.

Again, C-14 doesn't lie.

On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the Land Animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 Million years ago.

Except that the evidence says they all died during a global flood.

Or does the fact that there are millions of dead things buried in (sometimes multiple) rock layers laid down by water all over the earth not mean anything to you? (Gotta love Ken Ham's wording on that one, quite catchy, dontcha think?)

Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY) God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X Number of years, I never said Animal like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago, when God placed His spirit in us and thus we are immortal in that our souls can not die.

There's just one problem with this...

But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ - Mark 10:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark10:6&version=NKJV

Jesus said that. The Creator of the Universe. I'd think He would know. Or are you calling Him a liar?

We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing, because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.

Remember Lucy? Supposed to be a pre-human creature? You want to know how she died?

The autopsy of Lucy shows she died falling out of a 40ft tree at about 35 mph. Does that sound like a human to you? That sounds like a monkey trying to flee from the destruction caused by a wall of water, which would have covered her instantly with sediments, preserving her body, allowing it to fossilize. Oh wait, that sounds like the Flood of Noah, when the waters of the great deep broke forth.

On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So its not necessarily either or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

So are we in the 6th day or 7th day currently?

You said "during this time period (6th day)" as if talking about the past 6000 years up to today, and then you say "on the 7th day God rested. So has God not rested yet?

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven(SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).
 
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