ECT All Things Are Lawful For Me

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

The OBEDIENCE that comes from faith.

Yes, the obedience comes from faith. Therefore, faith precedes obedience. By the time a person obeys God he is already saved:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

This is so simple but it is way, way, way above your understanding.
 

God's Truth

New member
Yes, the obedience comes from faith. Therefore, faith precedes obedience. By the time a person obeys God he is already saved:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

This is so simple but it is way, way, way above your understanding.

Jesus explains to those who do not know whether to believe him or not how to find out if what he says is true.

He tells them to do what he says and then they would find out. See John 7:17.
 

God's Truth

New member
Yes, the obedience comes from faith. Therefore, faith precedes obedience. By the time a person obeys God he is already saved:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

This is so simple but it is way, way, way above your understanding.

The message they heard had to do with Jesus and the forgiveness of our sins. It is so simple but you fail to see it. Tell me how it is that you believe no one has to ask forgiveness/repent of their sins to get forgiveness?
 

God's Truth

New member
She has no view because she is blind to the truth. Romans 1:16 makes it plain that faith and faith alone results in salvation. Just because she does not believe this does not mean that the truths found in the Bible are not black and white but only gray.

Are you going to reply to what Paul says to the people after he said that in Romans 1:16?

Paul warns them about how if they did not repent of their sins when they have faith that there will be no favoritism from God for them, and how they will face God's wrath for wickedness that they do.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The message they heard had to do with Jesus and the forgiveness of our sins. It is so simple but you fail to see it. Tell me how it is that you believe no one has to ask forgiveness/repent of their sins to get forgiveness?

Can you not read? The only thing which Paul told him he had to do is to believe!

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

Paul told him that if he believed he would be saved. He did not tell him that he must ask for his sins to be forgiven in order to be saved.

You are unable to deal with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. You never hesitate to pervert their meanings if it serves your agenda of denying the truth that men are saved by grace through faith.
 

God's Truth

New member
Can you not read? The only thing which Paul told him he had to do is to believe!

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

Paul told him that if he believed he would be saved. He did not tell him that he must ask for his sins to be forgiven in order to be saved.

You are unable to deal with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. You never hesitate to pervert their meanings if it serves your agenda of denying the truth that men are saved by grace through faith.


Can you read? I have asked you repeatedly to explain what Paul is telling them to believe.

If you come to terms with that question, then you can be corrected.
 

God's Truth

New member
Can you not read? The only thing which Paul told him he had to do is to believe!

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

Paul told him that if he believed he would be saved. He did not tell him that he must ask for his sins to be forgiven in order to be saved.

You are unable to deal with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. You never hesitate to pervert their meanings if it serves your agenda of denying the truth that men are saved by grace through faith.

The only time faith alone is mentioned is once in the KJV, and it is to tell us what kind of faith not to have.

Why don't you understand that the message that saves is FOR THOSE WHO FEAR GOD and do what is right?

That is what the scriptures say.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Why can't you just accept what is written in the Scriptures? You say that "God did not like the idea of sinful (read: "disobedient") people having eternal life (Gen 3:22)."

Are you not aware that all those living today who have been given eternal life are sinners and are not always obedient?

You even admit that all those to whom the Lord Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. And John tells Christians that they have already received eternal life. So if you would just use your brain for a change you would realize that Christians enjoy eternal security.

Eh? You quoted me quoting scripture, and then ask why I don't accept what is written there? Do you think christians will all be sinners for all eternity? No wonder you have a problem answering your OP question.

I don't deny that christians ("little christs") enjoy eternal security. I've been using the word "believers", because I think it is less co-opted than "christians". But that's really the point, isn't it. We don't get to label ourselves as "christians" just be cause we want to (thus the controversy with JWs, for example., who like to use the word, but don't believe in Jesus Christ's physical death, burial, and resurrection). You've caveated "believers" as "true believers". You should do the same with "Christians". I don't have any problem with "true Christians" being affirmed in their eternal security. But the definition of "true Christian" depends on how they finish the race--if they still believe that Jesus is their salvation. If they don't, if they reject Christ, then they aren't "true Christians".

We can imagine that God looks at something else to determine "trueness" of belief, but God tells us what to look for in our own lives.

You keep acting like I'm coming up with something on my own. I'm giving you scripture--one of the best being 1 John, which you've conveniently ignored. John was writing to Christians, and in his warnings, he even used the words "we" and "us" to include himself in the assessment of true faith. And he gave indicators to determine if they (including himself) were really following God/loving God/knowing God. If there is no possibility that a "true" believer can lose his salvation, then a "true" believer is defined not by a single event of walking down the aisle or praying a prayer, but by the fact that he didn't fall away.

So your pleas to see "eternal life" as a thing that can be handed around willy-nilly is untenable in scripture. True eternal life is a promise that relies on the belief in the death and resurrection of the True Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And there's a reason (don't you love that word!!) that He is called "Lord".

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [1Jo 2:3 KJV]
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life. [1Jo 2:25 KJV]
 

God's Truth

New member
There are numerous passages in the Bible that reveal that salvation is obtained by faith and in those same passages no other requirements are listed. Despite this, you deny every single one of them.

You deny the scriptures.

Why won't you answer the question about Paul saying to those who believe that if they had not repented of their sins then there would be no favoritism from God to them?

Why won't you tell me what Paul says that we have to believe about Jesus to be saved?
 

God's Truth

New member
Rom 3:28 therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.-YLT

'apart from- choris'- separately, without

....which means the same thing as 'faith alone'.

No, it doesn't mean faith alone.

You think Paul is saying, "We are saved by faith without obedience".

Paul would never ever say such an ignorant and insane thing.

The works Paul was speaking about are the ceremonial works.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
No, it doesn't mean faith alone.

You think Paul is saying, "We are saved by faith without obedience".

Paul would never ever say such an ignorant and insane thing.

The works Paul was speaking about are the ceremonial works.

That's what it plainly says.
You just don't like it.

Paul said 'law', not 'the' law.
He means any works of supposed merit.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Do you think christians will all be sinners for all eternity? No wonder you have a problem answering your OP question.

That is not what I said. Here is what I said:

"Are you not aware that all those living today who have been given eternal life are sinners and are not always obedient?"

We can imagine that God looks at something else to determine "trueness" of belief, but God tells us what to look for in our own lives.

The Lord knows the heart of all men (1 Chron.28:9) so he knows who has true faith and who doesn't. And to those with true faith He gives eternal life.

If there is no possibility that a "true" believer can lose his salvation, then a "true" believer is defined not by a single event of walking down the aisle or praying a prayer, but by the fact that he didn't fall away.

So are you denying that the Lord does not know who has true faith? You have already confirmed that you believe that the Lord gives true believers eternal life. And you have confirmed that those to whom the Lord Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish.

With these facts in mind then address all of these "three" points and tell me why you believe that those who have been given eternal life can perish.
 

God's Truth

New member
This is the same kind of word twisting that satan, himself, employes. Except, of course, he is more subtle about it.

hahahaha

So you see something wrong with what YOU say.

You are the one who who goes against me for says faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

You are the one who says we do not have to do anything.

It is unbelievable how I said what you tell me, but then when I say it you then twist it into something that it is not.
 

God's Truth

New member
Show me the verse that makes you think this.

Romans 2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
No, it doesn't mean faith alone.

You think Paul is saying, "We are saved by faith without obedience".

Paul would never ever say such an ignorant and insane thing.

The works Paul was speaking about are the ceremonial works.

That's what it plainly says.
You just don't like it.

Paul said 'law', not 'the' law.
He means any works of supposed merit.

Paul would never say we are saved by making sure we do not obey.

This is the same kind of word twisting that satan, himself, employes. Except, of course, he is more subtle about it.

God's UNtruth merely laughs when she twists Steko's words. Clearly there is a difference between being saved without obedience and saved by making sure we do not obey. Yet, she laughs. :nono:
 
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